Steve Brown 0:00
Kurt Philip welcome to the ROI Online Podcast
Kurt Philip 0:03
thanks for having me on
Steve Brown 0:05
so Kurt the folks that are watching and listening you know these folks are entrepreneurs i believe that the invisible heroes of our economies are these entrepreneurs they risk everything they put everything on the line and what do they do by they bring us services and products that improve our lives but they also help employ a big portion of the workforce and aggregate and so this these conversations are to help enlighten them and give them a leg up in some of the areas that seems very confusing because when you're running a business there's this point in time where you look up and you go i really have to get my act together online and so these conversations help bring insights and stuff that empower them to do better in that very confusing world so your company is converted and you're the founder and ceo tell us a little bit about what Convertica is and why in the world you chose to plant your flag and conversion rate optimisation
Kurt Philip 1:15
wow that's a good that's a good question it's sort of presented itself i guess so i've been in internet marketing for pretty much my whole adult life from about 20-21 i'm 35 now so quite a quite a long time now and it was you know i was i've had e-commerce businesses i've had i've done seo for a long time i've i've had affiliate sites and bunch of different internet internet businesses and saw the opportunity of opportunity for conversion rate optimisation growing and growing like there was more people out there pumping tons of money into their businesses but their their websites were crap that's all it came down to is like the difference between a developer or someone who develops a website and somebody who knows how to sell is two very different things and and i was able to bridge that gap being a developer myself in the past then moving into more into sales and and marketing and everything i was able to bridge that gap and then going down the rabbit hole of conversion optimization and been able to specialize in just making websites perform better and is growing you know it's it's becoming a huge huge industry now and there's tons when i started there wasn't that many businesses of course there were businesses but we've been going for about 4, 4, 4 and a half years right now and now it's huge now there's people people everywhere doing it which is fantastic you know competition is what what keeps the business like the industry growing and evolving and changing so
Steve Brown 2:48
so when we say conversion rate optimization give us just a basic explanation on what that is
Kurt Philip 2:58
yeah so if you have 1000 people visiting your website and you want them to buy, buy one of your products or purchase one of the things on your website, we help to make the website function better function easier to get that goal completed so you know you might you might come to us when you make 20 sales for 1000 visitors our job is to try and increase that across across much more data than 1000 but just we we have a bunch of techniques that we've we've had around 650 700 clients now run 1000s and 1000s of tests so we have a lot of data on what works and so when we get a client to come in we we test all these things out we test you know a bunch of stuff that's worked in the past on on other clients site to see if that in fact works on a different site and creates more revenue and creates more sales and so on but a lot of the time people's websites just look like crap on mobile so that's that's one of the quickest things we do we go in and make sure it runs slick on mobile considering 60-70 even 80% of visitors come through just on their mobile now because our phones are so powerful but the websites are designed by developers on a desktop so it's like this big disconnect
Steve Brown 4:15
absolutely and so my book is called the Golden Toilet: Stop Flushing Your Marketing Budget into your Website and Build a System that Grows your Business and i love that you say that most websites are crap because most of them are they're useless they're like these teenagers that you know you go to someone's house and they're teenagers sitting there and they ignore you they're not helpful they're self absorbed you know they're messy and it's like what you're they're useless and people are struggling to try to get their websites to help them grow the value of their business and so when we're getting to the conversation of conversion rate optimization there's been this journey they've been on. When do you see people start To wake up and go, I need to really start to monetize my website better.
Kurt Philip 5:06
Yeah, so it's usually when they've already hit a level of success. So it's usually at the point where I'd say the entry level of the type of client we work with is around seven figures a year in, in revenue. So it's when they have enough traffic, they have enough orders and sales volumes that we can start testing things out. And it's usually when the business is running. And it's good, but they want to milk more out of it, they want to reduce their, you know, the their PPC costs, how much it's costing them to push orders through, or they've maxed out their search engine optimization, and they're trying to create more sales, or they're looking to sell their site in two, three years. And they want to maximize the amount of revenue it's pulling so they can exit for the largest amount. So it's just like the one say, the last stage, it's one of the last stages that people do once their website's already already functioning. That's, that's our main packages with testing. But we have another service where we go and help people that are starting out too. And we provide them with like a best practices of our learnings that we've, that we've learned from all our clients that we've had over the years. So we have that too, for new startups, or people that just want a website they knows in the best form to move forward and sort of and sort of grow their business. Yeah.
Steve Brown 6:23
Excellent. So I have these questions I get asked often, and so I just kind of want to run through them quickly. But some when people go, what how do I how do I find out our conversion rate? That's a simple question. But it's a legitimate question, what is your answer?
Kurt Philip 6:45
My answer would be Why? What are you trying to? Like why you're trying to find out your conversion rate. It's a very, it's a pretty big vanity metric, even though we do conversion rate optimization. People say is my conversion rate good, right. And there's so many variables that come into it type of traffic, if you're running Facebook ads, and you're just running your ads, that super cold, cold audience, and you could be pumping $10,000 a day into it, you can have a shitload of traffic, but it's not going to convert. So that's what I say to what is your conversion rate. But it's essentially how many visitors are coming to your website. And how many people are buying is essentially how you work out your conversion rate, a simple form, but how to work out what a good conversion rate is, is it's harder as add a question to answer.
Steve Brown 7:31
I think a lot of people approach this, the solution wrong. They're trying to manipulate the algorithms, a search engines, the robots, and they're not focusing on the actual humans that are visiting their website, and what's important to them as far as the user experience. Where do you Where do you impact that? How do you get someone to change their way they look at that, from trying to make Google happy to trying to think about how humans are engaging with their website.
Kurt Philip 8:07
Really, really simple one is, think about, you've got an e-commerce store, and you're on your mobile phone, and you're on a product page, you're ready to buy some socks, some Christmas socks, you scroll down and you scroll down, you're not quite sure if these socks are what you want to purchase, but you keep scrolling down and you go, Okay, these are the socks I purchase. But there's no Add to Cart button anywhere in sight, because there was one Add to Cart button and it's all the way back up to the top. And you've lost the customer because you didn't know where they can move forward. That's just one example. What we do is we add a floating Add to Cart button at the bottom of a product page. It's always visible on mobile. Simple, right, but it's right above the thumb, at any point when your sales copy on your on your product page has converted them for months right there. And there's a great example and other one is another one is we see it on tons of Shopify sites where they click Add to Cart. And there's little animation dings, and it shows us one item in the cart, but it doesn't do anything. It doesn't tell the person there's more than the cart, click the cart to go next. And there's just no like the way to progress. There's no way to proceed to checkout and we just make it. So it's like a three year old is on the website. For every step. Next step we want them to take we have it very clear and a color that's very stand up stands out a lot and it's no question what you want to be next. That's a sort of a basic way that we look at it. It's like what is your goal? And how is the easiest way for us to get get to that goal. So that's what we're always looking at.
Steve Brown 9:46
So I get this question a bunch. We help folks set up their funnels or a way to bring folks to find them to come in and to somehow develop a relationship with them and the typical term And the question I get is involves funnels is like, Well how to calculate a funnel conversion rate? And again, it seems like a simple question, but it's not. There's a lot to that. How would you How would you get me to think right about that?
Kurt Philip 10:21
Well, it depends on how many steps that are in the funnel, right? It depends on how, what the buyer intent is of the traffic and where they're coming in. Because I'm sure when you're designing a funnel for someone, there's visitors coming in at different points of the funnel, your retargeting visitors that have responded with the funnel in a certain way. And they're getting segmented onto a different email list and brought into a different level of the funnel and up sold things and down sold things. So again, it's there's no real easy way to work that out. But at the end of the day, it's just how many people are coming in? And how many are popping at the end of the funnel? It's a funnel, right? It's, it's called a funnel, because you, you're putting all these people in the top, and the sales are popping out the bottom. And depending on, you know, the different parts of the funnel they come in depends on what the conversion rate will be at a different point. I don't know what your final data, so I can't really add to that. But but that's essentially, that's essentially the way that I can answer it
Steve Brown 11:18
is so general. And then when people say funnel, they, they're imagining something, but it could be something very different that they're actually wanting to build. Tell us the process that you help folks start to see this happening, everyone hears the term and in it's assumed they understand, but it's not true. run us through like a way that you help identify like, a good funnel process for someone that let's say they have a business wouldn't be a good example of a business that you would you would want to describe Kurt.
Kurt Philip 12:00
So, so we work with a lot of Amazon affiliate websites. So we the sole job for an Amazon affiliate website is let's say they rank for best bluetooth headphones. And they're ranked number one on Google, they get a ton of traffic, they have a comparison table, comparing the different the different headphones, and then they get a commission paid for every sale at the end. So what we do is we depending on where they come in on the funnel, but in this case, they're coming in a pretty high level of buyer intent. They know they want headphones, they want to find the best headphones to buy. So they're already at that top of the funnel, and you just have to influence which ones they they come to, we just set up two variations of the of the page, we use our split testing software to segment the traffic and 50% of the users will see one variation 50% of the users will see one other variation, which we've designed and added changes that we think will convert better. And then we run, we usually run that test for three to four weeks, and then see what makes more sales. That's essentially our process to optimize an Amazon affiliate website, for instance. Now, an e commerce website might be different. One one test when they're coming through to straight to a product page. Usually, by the time they get to the product page, they've already been through a bunch of different levels of the funnel. If the website has a low order volume per customer on average, so let's just say it's bedding, for instance, as mattresses or something like that. Most of the time, they're just going to buy one mattress, and I'm going to buy 10 mattresses and almost impossible that you have quite I'm sure there'll be anomalies like hotel or something, they'll do that. But on general, the average order is just one item, what we'll do is when they click Add to Cart button, with they will just go straight to the checkout. Now a lot of websites do this out of the box, you know, so it's like you have to test if these things are going to influence the sales and item. Again, we'll send half the traffic to the original variation. And we'll send half the traffic to the Add to Cart button, then go straight to the checkout and analyze the sales. So we don't design funnels from scratch. we optimize people's funnels that are already in play creating sales and conversions and so on. And we use this process of split testing and using data to tell us what's better instead of the head creative at a firm or the head, a copywriter that is using creative and creative decision making and emotion to to work out what's going to be the better option. Or we say okay, well let's ask, let's ask the users what they think and we run. We run the tests for three or four or five weeks depending on traffic until we have the the answer.
Steve Brown 14:48
So what's what's a minimal amount of traffic that your website needs to be receiving to have good data to to help you reveal these insights?
Kurt Philip 14:58
Yeah, so it's, it's It's broad, it's a it's a mix of traffic and conversions. But essentially, you can usually get a conclusion between five and 10,000 visitors per tab per page, though. But if you don't have that amount of visitors, you can also combine pages if it's like the same product page layout. So you can do a whole site wide test of all the product pages, it's not as accurate, but it is a way that you can do it. But yeah, generally between five and 10,000 is a nice number, that you can start to gain conclusions from sometimes a lot higher, sometimes a bit lower, if the conversion rates high, but But yeah, generally around that
Steve Brown 15:35
you're listening to or watching a great conversation with Kurt Philip, he is the founder and CEO of convert occa. His company helps your website your store perform better with the traffic that you're receiving. So, Kurt, your team, you have a remote team right now, especially since the situation. How does that were you prepared for that? When everything became pretty much mandatory remote? How did that work out for you?
Kurt Philip 16:07
Yeah, fortunately, I was. It's all I've ever done. Even when I first started when I was 2021, something like that. I kind of have what it used to be, I think it used to be called oDesk, or Freelancer or something like that. That's where I, you know, started learning how to hire people from the Philippines. And that's the sort of culture I like to hire. There's no, I don't have anything against any other cultures. But Philippines I've worked with for over a decade, nearly two decades. But yeah, we were we were fortunately 100%, virtual 100% running over slack and an email and a bunch of different SaaS products. When, when, when COVID hit so it was it was fortunate. And it's awesome now that I think people have seen that you don't need officers you don't need you know, technology is in a position now where you can be much more agile, and much more. It's much more scalable for businesses, you're not having to outlay these huge costs. But yeah, we're at, we're at a team of around 20. Now, fully, fully online, and we've got, you know, we're not running a bunch of VMs we're running, you know, multi level of management, we've got juniors, we've got interns, we've got all these we're running a traditional corporate structure just over just over Slack, I guess, is our infrastructure that we run it on.
Steve Brown 17:28
I think a lot of companies have been convinced in the past year that if they were resisting, remote work or considering to be remote or wanting to avoid having to adapt to the new, the new virtual world, there, they're thinking different now, what are some tips that you would like three good tips that you would convey to someone that's trying to struggle and and not only convince themselves, but get established and make a good, a good play on this?
Kurt Philip 18:03
I think the biggest thing that a lot of people don't understand is just because you're in the US or just because they're in the UK, and wages command a higher amount due to the local, the local salaries, it doesn't mean that someone in the Philippines or India or the Ukraine isn't exactly on par with their level of skill, their level of motivation, their level of like hustle. Because from what I've seen, it's, I find it some more true in the Philippines or Ukraine or India that they have more, they don't have the government supporting them, they don't have these huge bailouts helping keep like they have to really grind and a lot of these guys working online are supporting 234 generations of their family because they managed to jump on board, you know, jump on board or the internet wave when it when it hit they didn't go to college, they just learned online self learned on YouTube and sort of just kept at it. And I think that's the biggest paradigm shift a lot of people are having is that just because you're paying someone 1000-2000 in the Philippines or India, it doesn't mean that they're any less skilled than someone that commands 10 in the US they can they can absolutely perform on par with with you know, with those type of people making that sort of salary is what I've what I've seen too
Steve Brown 19:32
someone the other day I got asked this question, how do you how do you create and have a good culture when it's remote? How do you how do you motivate people? How do you feel, make them feel connected and a part of your organization.
Kurt Philip 19:47
We spent a lot of time in the last year especially creating a really healthy team culture I read Powerful by the CEO of Netflix, which is a great, great book on how they build culture at Netflix, which is fully remote, they became one of the biggest companies in the world. But by doing so, so I took a lot of their page, I created a company culture document that outlines what our values are what, what what are not so much what our mission is, but sort of what we're about and what how we think about our clients and what our goals are and how we view staff. You know, we don't have traditional bosses we have like, we have expert parties, and then we have people that it's there's no barrier, like any staff, and they can talk to me if they need to. There's no like hierarchy, it's more of a modern structure. I think the team structure needs to edit sorry, the team culture needs to come from the CEO down still, you need to still instill a very clear picture on what what is the goals of the company? Like what are you what are you guys about, and really, I think having that bat culture doc really, really helped with that. And then we also do fun stuff, you know, like, during, during COVID. In the Philippines, a lot of the guys, we used to have weekly co working sessions where they go and meet up and work on hard projects, goals, and so on. But they couldn't do that with a lockdown the Philippines, lockdown was pretty, pretty hardcore. But so they would just work together on zoom, like for eight hours a day, and the productivity went through the roof, they would do pomodoro sessions, where they're like what's, you know, they work through and give each other tasks. And then they would work on it and doing setting timers. And they have to try and solve problems. And it really helped them with their mental health, you know, because no, I'm for I think they had three or four months where they weren't even allowed out apart for from shopping. So this helped keep that battle alive and actually made the team a lot, a lot stronger. So I guess seeing it as a traditional business, like it used to be in an office but instilling more modern. I mean, adapting to the modern conditions to make sure you feel that because we are social creatures, right. So it's like you still do need that element. I think a lot of people lose that when they when they work online, just do a lower email, you know, I still do weekly calls, sometimes to some of my, my senior members. So I still important even there's nothing to talk about just getting on the phone and talking and chatting and asking how the family is and all these type of things are really important for the overall health and culture of the team. Yeah,
Steve Brown 22:18
I found that. At first, when we were kind of half and half, we had an HQ where a lot of people were coming in. But But when this happened, we went fully remote. But we had been operating in a capacity that way. So it was an easy adaption. But I feel our team came together even closer, because we were navigating a challenge together as a team through a hard time. And on this side of it. It's like It's really impressive. And it feels it's like something that I think we're all proud of that we made it through together.
Kurt Philip 22:58
100% I think I got saying it. I think the mental health during all this was it was tough for a lot of people, you know, and I think just not having a clear idea on when it was going to be over. And I mean, now we're seeing a way out. And it certainly was that there. Get out of it. That felt like a year and a half, we had nothing, you know, not not in a year and a half a year, let's say there was nothing and it was like that, that it was hard as a family. You know, it was it was hard. But it also kept me kept me pushing to reading making sure that everyone was okay, making sure that and then we had a few staff members, you know, that we could see were really struggling and, and like you said, like, bonding together. And and I think that's the I agree that the team culture really became stronger during it all because you've gone through this together. And I think it's going to make the team a lot stronger moving forward.
Steve Brown 23:52
Yeah. So what motivates you, Kurt? Well, why why do you care so much about conversion rate optimization that's coming from some something in the past that really the lightbulb went on for you on how important that is? Where does that come from?
Kurt Philip 24:11
Well, I think the meaning of life has to have a purpose, right? So I have other hobbies and interests that I also have the same sort of focus and motivation. But conversion rate optimization was something that I'm very analytical, I'm very long term goal orientated and it just fit in line a lot with my personality. And I'm an extrovert. So my, my personality gravitates towards agencies style, where I'm helping and solving problems for, for people. So I think it was a bunch of, you know, a decade or so of working on different businesses and all came together to to be conversion rate optimization that really fit what I'm all about.
Steve Brown 24:57
So is Convertica more technology or is it more about your team?
Kurt Philip 25:03
It's a it's a mix. Yeah, it's a because of the amount of strategy and hypothesis that go into the testing. Of course, we couldn't run it without the technology, but we couldn't run it without the team too. So it's, it's not essentially a, it's definitely not a SaaS business, it's more of a product dies, product by service. So there's still a lot of customer integrate interaction between customer support the sales side, and then keeping that keeping the customer updated. Because customers usually with four to six months, sometimes one and two years, but generally four to six months on average. So keeping that relationship over that length of time, it's taken us a lot to get it right. But it's going really well now. So
Steve Brown 25:57
do you see that the process if, and a lot of folks that we work with are building out courses that in this past year has convinced them that that their traditional business model needs to adapt, and one of the ways they're adapting are providing services that teach what they do. So that means they end up with courses, or they end up with classes, things that convey the knowledge of how they go about their expertise? What do you what do you see, as far as what have you kind of noticed as far as trends on what's great, what you do? And the insights that you've seen that's different than an Amazon store? How would you approach the conversion process for courses or teaching classes,
Kurt Philip 26:46
it's essentially the same process. So we've we've had plenty of course, guys that we've worked with, I released my own course a few years ago, we haven't put too much focus into it just because we're too busy fulfilling our service. But yeah, we've worked with a lot, it's essentially the same thing. It's like, here's one variation. Here's another variation, send your users or students or any set of traffic at the at the website and see what increases the goal you have defined, right? That's what a conversion is, it doesn't have to be a sale, it doesn't have to be a sign up, it could also be a newsletter subscriber, it could be a click of a button, it could be a bunch of stuff. So essentially the same process for course, guys, or same price for an e commerce store. The strategy and the hypothesis are going to what we're going to test is obviously very different. But it essentially follows the same principles.
Steve Brown 27:41
The variables that can be measured on a page or an email, or a social media post, there are unlimited, you know, people can change our I will change the color of the button This time, there seems like there would be a lot of variations that you would need to observe to land upon the most optimized version of a correct,
Kurt Philip 28:03
yeah, but there's also the 80-20, right. Like, there's most people, if we, we've analyzed this by adding what's called scroll maps to a website where you can see how far down people scroll, and then you can see that 95% of the users don't go past a certain point. So then you know what area to focus on the page. And then once you focus on that page, then you can see on that on the top 10% of the page 90% of users only go to one area of that part. And you can really double down on Okay, we need to run a heap of tests on this specific area of the page, because that's where all the all the actions happen. You don't want to go and test areas that are right down the bottom, the footer menu or something because you know, no one's looking at that. So. So yeah, while it's infinite, there's also a very rigid framework you can follow by following the I wouldn't even say the 80-20 principle, it would be much more like the 90-10 principle people or 10% of the page will be creating 90% of the interaction on most, most, most pages. Yeah.
Steve Brown 29:07
And wonder of all the websites that are out there, what's the one little variable that they could, based on your observation over the years is probably one little thing that would make a big difference, that they could immediately impact those that are listening to this podcast and what would that be?
Kurt Philip 29:27
Jump on your mobile phone and try and complete it a process for instance, buying an item on your site or signing up for something and see how that experiences for you on your own website on your phone? I think it will surprise a lot of people you know, so most websites we look at that's what we start with is it's like jump on your phone and see how the experiences while on your website or on the website on your computer might be slick. You might have spent most of the time because most people are editing their websites changing copy be uploading images on their website on their desktop sorry, not on their phone. So spend some time on on, on your mobile and like, see how it feels? And then honestly, you can google one of the best 10 things to change now for conversions on your mobile? And it'll tell you and it's like, of course, why don't I think of this? You know, it's, like I said, websites design on the computer website updated on the computer, I don't think I've ever logged into WordPress on my phone to make a change. Because it's, it's difficult. It's like, it's easier than it used to be, don't get me wrong, but it's unless you're a really good typer on your phone, you're not going to write a blog post on your phone, you're gonna jump on your computer and smash it out and then post it. So that's the reason for so that would be what I'd say, it's not specifically an easy answer to say, change this, to buy now add to cart on your, you know, your call to action button on your product page. But that's, that's what I just like, get on your mobile phone and spend 1015 minutes clicking around your website, or even better, because you might have some blindness to your website, get one of your friends or family to do it, and see how long it takes them and listen to their frustrations. You know, while while you're doing it, you might have some good feedback.
Steve Brown 31:22
Do you think so? I'm when I look at the stats on the mobile visits to websites, and we work on that it's around 50%? And so are you seeing the same thing? Are you seeing a higher?
Kurt Philip 31:34
Generally it's higher, you know, for e-commerce site for affiliate websites, it's usually 60, 70 80% sometimes. So I think ours is around 60. And I think it's because people are just generally I think what will happen is people will search for queries, while they're out and about commuting at lunch, having coffee, whatever. And then they'll go and make the purchase on their computer. So I think a lot of the time a lot of the research is done. And the buying process and try to convert people as done on the phone, and the actual purchasing all the time. Not all the time. But a lot of the time is done on on the computer. Depends on the website, though, because I know Amazon's website is fantastic. And I bought many a thing. And it's turned up at my house and I forgot I even bought it because they make the blind process. So slick. And I think a lot of people can learn a lot from from just playing around on Amazon's website if you have an e commerce store. But yeah.
Steve Brown 32:38
So we've been talking with Kurt Philip, he's the founder and CEO of Convertica, it's his company helps you get more out of your website more out of your shopping cart, your process. And so Kurt always like to ask, you know, what's one question that you never get to ask that you'd love to answer? Hmm.
Kurt Philip 33:03
That's a weird question. And I'm sure I'm sure everyone stumps for a bit. Right. So you see, you've asked me that question. I think how am I supposed to answer that? Am I answering it with the what is the question that I want to be answered?
Steve Brown 33:22
Yeah, you know, I'm digging, I like to find what maybe there's something passionate that you you're kind of, it's in love to talk about when no one ever asked you or you don't ever get to explore that.
Kurt Philip 33:38
I think everyone should do Brazilian jiu jitsu. I think it's the most humbling and self development sport in the world. And I think the world would be a happier place if everyone did it, for sure.
Steve Brown 33:51
Everyone needs to get their ass kicked.
Kurt Philip 33:55
No, it's it's very humbling. It's very, it teaches you a lot about yourself. It teaches you to always learn from failure and feedback. And it's a very long process to become an expert, six to 10 years. So it requires long term goals, dedication, turning up every day, or these types of things. And it's definitely made me a better person this and sort of started training it. So
Steve Brown 34:23
when did you get exposed to that as you're in Thailand now for this conversation? Is that where you were introduced to them?
Kurt Philip 34:29
No, no, I don't I do it all around the world now, but it's, uh, I met some very enlightened people over the years and they always that was always what was the defining factor. They all did. They all did Brazilian jiu jitsu. And I was like, interesting. I'm noticing a very, it's like a very calm, humbling, humble personality they would always have and I did it myself and it definitely humbled me up a lot and, and brought me back to probably back down to earth. from us is very good for ego checking. Yeah. Awesome.
Steve Brown 35:05
I love that. So what's the future for Convertica?
Kurt Philip 35:11
I love it at the side of that right now. So I think just maintaining our current scope, we're looking to acquire some businesses to add on to if I can see some strategic acquisitions that align with, you know what our goals are. But we're seeing we're seeing good growth, we're seeing the team is automating using a lot of technology now to remove a lot of the human element. Because there's so much good software out there that plug and plays was a p&l, so you can automate so much of that repetitive mundane tasks. So I'm very excited where the next five to 10 years is going with technology and how we can embrace that. And I think everyone needs to get on the Internet at some point, because a lot of these jobs are getting automated and people are a lot of people are going to be left behind, I guess. Right. I think it's already happening. It's already happening now. So it just requires you to be self self accountable. And go out there and learn yourself. Right. And that's the hard part for a lot of people haven't haven't done that before and takes a lot of takes a lot of balls to begin with, I think.
Steve Brown 36:25
Yeah. So where's the good place for people to find you or connect with you, Kurt?
Kurt Philip 36:30
Yeah, so Convertica.org/blog. I mean, I've got all my contact details on the on the sidebar in there. And then we put a lot of content content on there too related to commercialization. We share case studies about winning tests that we have, and, and yeah, so
Steve Brown 36:48
good Kurt. I'm really enjoyed having you on the ROI Online Podcast. You've been a great guest.
Kurt Philip 36:53
Thanks for having me.
Steve Brown 36:55
All right. That's a wrap.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai