On this episode of the ROI Online Podcast, Author Sarah Selecky talks with Steve about the different forms of story, how storytelling can improve your sales, and why it’s the best way to talk to the humans you’re trying to reach.
Watch This Episode⬇️
Sarah has her MFA, is the author of two different books, and the teacher and founder of Sarah Selecky Writing School, an online program for writers looking to make writing a habit and improve their craft and technique. She relates to the protagonist of her latest novel, who struggles with showing up online authentically while trying to sell art.
Listen To This Episode⬇️
Where most people recognize The Hero’s Journey—and The Heroine’s Journey—as a dominant story structure, Sarah knows those aren’t a writer’s only options. She walks Steve through a few different forms because she believes it’s important to analyze them objectively, both as a writer and a business owner.
Sarah believes the story is always smarter than you are. Her challenge is finding a way to honor the idea of what a story is without feeling too beholden to a set form. She wants her readers to keep turning her pages, but not to have to follow all the rules all the time. To do so, she asks the story what it wants to be and lets it play out in a way that allows her to find joy and love in the process—not fight it.
Sara Selecky Writing School is a combination of learning to love the craft of writing and mastering techniques. Sarah has her students look for the good in other’s writing so they can spot and articulate it more easily, which she believes will help them bring more of that love and language to the page.
Enroll in the QuickStart Academy today to learn how to develop and implement a proven growth strategy that grows your ROI, your business, and your confidence. Learn moreHERE.
Thinking of starting your own podcast? Buzzsprout’s secure and reliable posting allows you to publish podcasts online. Buzzsprout also includes full iTunes support, HTML5 players, show statistics, and WordPress plugins. Get started usingthis linkto receive a $20 Amazon gift card and to help support our show!
What would it feel like if there was like if there's an aspect of connectivity that you're that you want to reach in through your work as a creative person, and you don't have to fight to get there? What if it was an act of compassion and love and empathy? What if there's like, you know, just what would happen? What would have How would that make that better for you? And then it through my experiment in reading radiant shimmering light with the high pot that was one of my hypotheses going into it is like, I'm going to make this fun. For myself. I'm going to write this, even though it's a hard story, and there are things about it that aren't fun. My I'm going to come to the desk with pleasure. And this is this is directly related to reading the War of Art and being like, okay, but I'm not a soldier. Okay, so let's like, I don't want to let no one's telling me to write a book like I'm a fiction author. This is not lucrative. This is not for my notoriety in like reputation. This is not this is like, nobody asks me to do this. No one's paying me to do this. This is like, why would I do this? If this is hell?
Steve Brown:
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the ROI online podcast where we believe you, the courageous entrepreneurs of our day, are the invisible heroes of our economy. You not only improve our world with your ideas, your grit and your passion, but you make our world better. I'm Steve Brown. And this is a place where we have great conversations with winners just like you while we laugh and learn together. Sarah, so lucky. Welcome to the ROI, online podcast.
Sarah Selecky:
Thank you, thank you for having me.
Steve Brown:
So this is this is fun. So you've written this book, called radiant shimmering light. And so you come from the world of creative book writing, you were a recommendation to me, some of the other folks that I'm interviewed, and I love having folks from this creative book writing domain, you have a you're the creator of the Sarah selecting writing school, you have another book called This cake is for the party. I love that title. And But anyway, I was looking at your, your radiant, shimmering light book, and it's about this pet portrait artist, that's trying to be a good business person and sell their creative work, and try to be legit, on social media. And, and I was just laughing about it, even though that wasn't, that's not the overall story, I was laughing at the setup. Because that illustrates the total problem that every business owner wrestles with, is they have to, they have to work into this creative domain of being a virtual representation in some way. And, and it's got the marketing and there's creative and the website and you can just want to do their business. And then vice versa, you have these creative people that have to wander into that's why I'm excited about having you here and talking about it. But tell me a little bit why you chose that setup. In
Sarah Selecky:
Yeah.
Steve Brown:
Obviously you may have related with her. Right?
Sarah Selecky:
Come to find out Yeah, um, you know, the book, the book started the seeds of those characters started long before I related in that way. Actually, they are spin us a million, the main character of the novel, radiant, shimmering light is a character as the main character and one of the short stories in my first book, this cake is for the party. And you know, this, all these books were written in the late 2000s. And, and then took took us into where we are now. And in that time, everything has changed. I mean, that was before Facebook before Instagram. So in the short story, Lillian was selling products, she was part of a multi level marketing program, and she was trying to sell nutritional products to her friends, and the story was around intimacy, Authenticity, and, and generating an income and what happens when friendships become transactional? And, and then what I started thinking was what would happen if, you know when Instagram came up, and when Facebook came around? I would just Daydream and think what would Lillian do if she had Instagram? What would Lillian do if she so I extended from there and and really daydreamed? At the start of social media before it became what it is now, you know, before the algorithms started shifting like at the beginning, it was a much simpler time and The novel really came out of imagining what would happen if someone was trying to sell their artwork using social media? Well, as it turns out, you know, here we are, it's 2020. And everyone needs to use social media if they're if they're going to do anything. So I started the premise with a daydream. And then at the same time, in IRL, I moved my work, which was I was a creative writing instructor, a private teacher. I moved my work like many, many, many other people online. And so I came up against the same things that Lillian was coming up against, which is how do you how do you? Yeah, as legit, as you say, how do you market yourself with that authenticity? How do you? How do you enter the field of capitalism, really, as an artist who's working in the realm of art, in Lillian's case, watercolor paintings, in my case, it was teaching artists how to create art. And that economy is not, it does not align well all the time with the market economy. It's a it's a shared economy, it's a gift economy, you know, art has to keep moving in order to stay alive. So where the gift economy lines up with the market economy? And how does that rub and how does that affect relationships? And how does that affect your own relationship with yourself? And how does it really affect your relationship with your art? And, you know, can you be purist about it? Do you have to put, you know, you got to put food on the table? How do you do it? So that those were the things that that came up as I was writing it? And yeah, as I began teaching, moving my teaching online, I had more and I discovered more and more and more about Lillian's world. Just through being not just through being on the sidelines myself. Yeah.
Steve Brown:
So only and that's, that's what everyone runs into. Whether they're from the artsy side, or the business side, the artsy side is like, I just want to create art. And am I selling out that I actually get an online store together? And then start thinking, and how do I run campaigns to get more people introduced to my art? You know, there's that there's that thing that you wrestle with? How How do you help people approach that conversation? How would curious what's your therapy?
Sarah Selecky:
Radiant shimmering, light writing radiate shimmering light was my therapy? It's not, it's an unresolvable dilemma. So I think it's an unresolvable dilemma. So I don't think that there's a way to solve the problem. I don't. And I maybe wouldn't have said that at the beginning of the writing experience. And my journey through those characters and what they were, what they were doing. In that story, was part of my own journey of figuring out is this resolvable or not, and I think that like so many things, truth exists, where there's a paradox, like the beauty of a paradox, I think we find that echoing in anything that feels really real, it's, it's, it's a both end situation, it's a neither nor situation. And I don't, I think that it's, I think that it's about accepting the fact that it's not going to feel resolved. And, and also accepting and understanding that there's a verb to to that balancing, it's not, it's not a achievable, end state, it's responding daily, or moment to moment, even in a way that feels appropriate to you staying in touch with your own values, and writing them down helps, you know, getting some kind of value equation. And then understanding that whatever technology you use, is going to help bring that bring you closer to your own values. So that changes day to day, you know, that can change seasonally that can change your you can change depending on what you're creating, who you want to reach out to the connections that you make through through exposing yourself and promoting yourself. And then there's often with with many writers, in particular, we're introverts. So the idea of the idea of promoting yourself and going out and putting it it's like, it's just like there's this extra layer that that sometimes feels even harder than other times. So I don't you know, I don't, I don't have a lot of advice except to pay attention and to, to know that you're not, you're only doing it wrong if if and when it feels bad, and then just you know, take a pause.
Steve Brown:
So you hit like on three really great thoughts to explore. Okay, so I think it's inherent in And so in Lillian's case or in a in an entrepreneur's case, you know, they're wanting that one silver bullet that resolves this art, art to business application. And, and the truth is there's no silver bullet, but that's what we're hoping to find. And so we search it. But what we don't realize, actually, there's a process. There's an application of principles. And the other thing you touched on what's, you know, you have to figure out what you're about. And weave that in that process. So you. And so first, you have to get your messaging, right. And then here we are, in this time and age, there's a technology application, but that technology is going to change. Oh, yeah, it's changed. But, but it's universal across time, you're gathering your messaging, right? utilizing the technology of your day, having a way to connect with people in a in an authentic way, that, that you're so your multi level conversation that you brought up?
Sarah Selecky:
Mm hmm.
Steve Brown:
So here's, we've all been exposed to it in some way, either as a participant or a victim of that, okay. And here's the dilemma that the multi level marketing process presents to I look at you as my friend, or do I look at you as a sale. And if you're not, if I'm not looking at you as a sale, then in my failing on my commitment to reach my goals, and that's what I call quotas, the quotas, everything wrong with what it means that I just want to make my quota whether it's right for you or not, I need to hit my quota. Yeah. And I love that, that you brought that up, because that's universal in many applications. And if we start to look at each other as humans, and if I really want to help you, then my, my quota subordinate to, what's the most valuable thing for you, and if it happens to be what I'm about, we'll work that in. But after we determine whether this is even a good conversation around, yeah,
Sarah Selecky:
it's so tricky, though, like that very, it sounds very calming when you put it that way. But anyone in that position? I mean, how do you know? Where's the Where's your center? Where Where are you grounded in knowing how do you know if you're doing it the right way or not. And it's, it's, it's not something that is a template, it's person to person, there you go. And it's day to day, and, you know, there's a knowledge, it's not even multi level marketing. But anything where you are offering something to someone else, even if it's like a teaching, that has no price attached, there's this there is a resistance, it's like, before any creative act, there's going to be a resistance. So part of the role of a good helper is to understand that someone's going to resist understand that tension. And then, you know, on the on what I think is the nefarious side, manipulate that, and then on the on the compassionate side, ease someone into growing. And I don't think I mean, you can, we've all seen if you've been if you've just touched on marketing and seen the language, you can see how easily manipulable that is, and that someone who has been coached to manipulate through that tension that place of tension feels quite can feel quite right about it can feel quite righteous about it, that they're doing like that. They you know, people want to be sold something people want to have this chain like this is for them. And, you know, that's really tricky ground. Yeah, yeah.
Steve Brown:
I loved Alright, so we're a story brand. We were the first story brand certified agency, most story brand certified guide now. And there's a seven part framework, it's a template or it's a, a system to apply the rules of story into your marketing. And one of the key points that makes it so powerful is to, to that to realize that the people you want to help, they're the hero in their story, and you're the helper, you're the guide. So I love this conversation and about the resistance that a guide is going to meet. talk some more to us. Yeah,
Sarah Selecky:
yeah. I mean, that's okay. I want to caveat this by saying like later Can we talk about other methods, other story forms other than hero's journey because everything this is like, and I don't have answers around this. I'm still just exploring it myself. But we have been inundated, we had like the dominant paradigm has told us that the hero's journey is the only story. And that's not true. It's just the one. It's the one that that we work. It's the paradigm we work within. So, you know, the caveat is, we also know that there are things about the paradigm we live in that aren't working. So if the main story form is a part of that, I think that as creatives, it behooves us to interrogate that and dismantle it and break it up and see if there are other ways to looking at story so that I want to look at that later. That's part and talk about and see what you think about it. But as far as that resistance in the classic hero's journey, and even the heroines journey, there comes there comes a call an initiation and invitation. And the hero always says no first, because it means it means changing the status quo of what the end whether the status quo is happy or unhappy, or you know, a story of success or despair, it's comfortable, it's what's known. So calling into the unknown is just it's the it's the initial you see it, you see it everywhere you see it in books, you read, you see it in TV shows, every episode has a moment where here's the new thing that you can do. And the hero or the collective says, I don't think so I don't have to do that. And that invitation is always going to be the invitation to the journey, which, again, whether it's a hero's journey of an external or a heroines journey, which is more internal, it is a place of evolution and transformation. So it the journey will bring you to a place of knowing things that you didn't know, before understanding things you didn't understand before, all of that stuff with brick, which brings you to another place, which is hopefully a better place, but you know, a growth place. Right? So understanding, I can see how, in any case, I can see how in any kind of marketing template or idea of how to go forward that way, if you understand that the person you're working with is going to say no first. You can, you can work with that you can work with that, understanding that that's part of the natural part of the journey of growth.
Steve Brown:
So, so being a better helper. Hmm. And, you know, one of the things that we wanted to discuss as well, as we talked about the resistance, the, the enemy of being creative is a resistance that we face. And understanding that people that need to go to a change are realizing they need to embrace some solution to solve whatever it is that's making them uncomfortable. And where the how helper, how do you approach let's talk more about approaching the resistance of a better? Yeah, version of a helper?
Sarah Selecky:
Yeah, well, it's this, you know, I love how you how you introduce that, because as you were speaking, I was just reflecting. It's not unlike being a good friend. And it's not for it's not over the short term, it's long term. So it's really it's you build a relationship with someone, and then you get to understand them. And you can actually empathize better with them, the longer you know them, you can't assume things about the other person beyond basic assumptions that everyone wants to feel, you know, happy and be out of suffering and the rest of it, but I mean, what someone needs at this stage in their life, you can't assume you know, but if you have a relationship with a person, and you build trust with the person, when they are spinning their wheels, you can sometimes just say like, here's some traction, here's this might, for someone like you who's spinning, who's seeing you appear to be spinning your wheels. Knowing you the way I do this might give you some traction. And, and then you give it to them, you know, you guide from the side. And you let them and you let them take it and and then it becomes their journey. It's not like here, let me put you in this vehicle that I made it so souped up, it's amazing, you're going to have the rest of your life because Sure enough, they could. But then they get out they step out of it. And then they're still spinning their wheels because they haven't figured out how to take traction themselves. So I don't think that you I don't I don't know that you can do that. Without a wider perspective, a wider view on the humaneness of the person in front of you and a whole lot of humility and space and space. You know spaciousness around, it's not just having a slow, like, letting them fun. Take it, take it, take it if you want it, leave it if you don't like I have this idea for how your life might be better. But here you go. It's up to you. I mean, that is another manipulative tactic. That I think that's a hole or even just saying you don't want this like for certain people. I think even just saying like psychologists have done the studies, right. There are certain people who you can say, this is probably not for you, and then leave it and walk away and that's what that's about. It's gonna make them want it. You know? Like Hendrick's gin. I remember when Hendrick's gin came out, and they had this whole, like, advertising, which was like, This isn't for everyone. Most people won't like this, you know, like, I'm one of those people. So that's another tactic. It's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about actually having the space to not know. And to actually care about the other person more than you care about, what if by yourself, I guess, because this isn't, I'm not talking about selling gym, I'm also talking about just like, helping people out through their lives, you know, and that's one of the things that story does is help is help people through their lives. You know, it's, it's a mirror that shows us ourselves, and how we may act in certain situations so that we learn how to be. So the empathy piece can't be rushed. I don't think
Steve Brown:
some great quotes here guide from the side.
Sarah Selecky:
I got that from my friend who's like a kindergarten teacher. She teaches at an international school in Singapore. And she was telling me about her lesson plan. She was like guide from the side guide from the side. It's like some inquiry verse linear learning, for kindergarten kids and younger, like, and for everyone.
Steve Brown:
So this, this conversation is actually, I was thinking it was more going to be around the creative application of communication, right. But basically, this has been a really beautiful conversation about how to do sales. Human, this is really what you're nailing so well. So let's talk about the other forms of story.
Sarah Selecky:
Well, okay, I mean, I'm not an expert. This is my this is, this is my new journey in exploration and humility, which is just that I was trained in a certain way. And Joseph Campbell was the one. And so I'm, I'm assuming most of your listeners are familiar with that, because of the work that you do. This is like, that's it and there's there's an arc to it. There are archetypes characters who show up like changeling, trickster, ally wise guide, you know, Yoda, the whole, that whole thing. There's also the heroines journey, which is Maureen Maureen Murdock wrote a great book on this same vintage of as women who run with the wolves kind of became around the same time, sort of in that that 90s feminism sort of swath, so it's still a good classic. And, and what I gained from that is an understanding that, in essence, in the patriarchy, the the heroine, who may or may not be a female, like it's not gender based, but the heroine in this, that's the language uses doesn't start from a place of status quo where everything's okay. And then there's a great change, and there's a call to adventure and then the person goes out and fights the dragon or, you know, gets the thing and brings it back to the home and makes the place better than it was before. In the heroines journey. The start of the journey is one of a feeling of unmatched, disintegrate like it's it's starting from within the patriarchy. So things are already out of balance, it's a wasteland to start. And the journey is one of internal depths going into a cauldron, the transformation happens on an internal place where there's some integration that happens between the male and female aspects or the yin and the yang. So things come more into balance as a result of the suffering and the so instead of tests and trials with allies and ogres and demons, and all of that it's more of a going down to a place of darkness. And finding within that the place where the the the unrealized feminine qualities that have been seen as you know, manipulative, or over emotional or whatever the negative aspects of those particulates are, can become re integrated within the heroines journey. And then she can come out and feel so instead of putting on the masculine, more masculine to achieve success, which is the false victory, that is the false the first call, and then she's like, I can do this and becomes Lara Croft Tomb Raider, which, you know, is a thing to a whole trope, where it's like the strong female lead. Instead of doing that, like doing that, and then realizes, oh, I'm, there's, there's a spiritual, they can see to this work like it's still out of balance, I can do this and then I will, I'll kill myself doing this. And it's not really creating balance. So going down through the journey of the suffering, finding there's some equilibrium and equalizing and reintegrating male and female So then coming out, using both at using male and female technologies to create a better self, self, self, but also a version of the world in which everyone flourishes. So not just a hero achievement, but actually coming out and making the collective better. As a result of the journey. It's good, there's a lot of good in that, that I like, there's a lot that you can take from that, right that that makes some sense, especially now, especially thinking about the climate and thinking about, you know, racism, and that, like, all the thing, everything that is happening just even with also with COVID, like being able to have a balance between spontaneity and structure or reason and intellect, you know, so those things like finding a balance between those aspects, that's what the the heroines journey is about. But there are more. I mean, that's just that those are both pretty, you know, there's a collective journey, there's a story of where it's not about one person, actually, it's about if, if this world that we live on is one of interconnectivity, which I mean, let's not pretend that it's not, then how can we create a story that's more about a collective helping to change a system or make the world a better place, using the power of our strengths come together, and all of our unique strengths come together? So like an ensemble collective sort of a journey, where there's not a main protagonist actually at all? And, you know, then there are other forms, there's like a spiraling nature instead of a linear form of beginning, middle and end. What about stories that happen in cycles, like the world we live in? What about, you know, and you know, our life cycle, all of it, like looking at things in terms of circles and cycles, rather than a line, looking at spirals? where something goes around and around something that's smaller, they're all there. There are so many different ones. I'm just getting to the, to understand a little bit more about it. I think that it I think that a lot of the oral narrative that Campbell took his his studies from, were seen through obviously, his perspective. So the perspective that you look at something obviously changes the form that you see it, there's no there's no truth without a vision of perspective on what it is there's no full truth, it's always so definitely worth looking at more into this is what what my current fascination is around. Because given all of those options and opportunities, as a writer, the challenge then for me is finding a way to discover and honor something that's not part of our dominant paradigms, idea of what a story is. But since we're all wired to understand that as a story, also, to write something that doesn't feel so avant garde that no one will pay attention to it like you need you still, I still want a reader to want to turn the pages. And if there's, you know, false promises that that eject her out of the story because she doesn't understand it as a story then then I'm then I'm failed. And I failed in my duty. So so this is that's the the current paradox for me is how do I write a story? That's not the dominant paradigm story, but also is not, you know, a disintegrated non story, plotless story because I love plot. Love Stories. Yeah.
Steve Brown:
Want to pause here just for a moment and talk to you about a program that we have just released, called the ROI quickstart Academy for authors. Every day, I talk to business owners just like you who struggle with quickly getting their fundamentals in place. We want to create a great foundation, and we want to grow our business. But the things that are in our way, our lack of knowledge about the specifics, we should put in place, what kind of technology what kind of messaging and what kind of campaigns and that problem exists for authors as well. And we just chill so good with authors because, well, I'm an author, and I understand everything that you struggle with, you have a great idea you have a great book, but what do you want to do? You want to get your book in front of more people, you want to make it easy for them to find you learn how they can schedule a time to talk with you hire you for a conference, or maybe sign up for the services that your book promotes. So what is the Quickstart Academy for authors? Imagine working with a small group of like minded authors, and the experts from the ROI quickstart team. It's a great way to get your messaging clear to be confident with the technology in your marketing automation, and how to run a strategic campaign to get you more of what you want from the investment of your book to learn more More about the Quickstart Academy for authors, you can visit ROI online.com or click in the link in the show notes below. And now, back to this episode. But that's, you know, that's with any entrepreneur, you, you start to feel that the way that everything's being done. There's an audience for that there's a market for that, but there's an underserved audience that you start to consider. And then you're you're doing you're in your testing area where Okay, can I write a book that follows my, my theory? And when it does go to market? How is it received? And how much pushback Am I getting that starting as an indicator of you may be going in the right way? Is there an audience that goes oh, my gosh, where have you been? All my life? And that's where you are right now, you're testing? That, you know, I see. You know, when in the common theme in our society is like, no, we're, we're all different and should be divided. And it sounded that there were there was an exploration of how that heroines story might be a way to start explore about where are we really, we're not so different. You and me. And there isn't an area that actually, that's kind of hidden from our eyes that we would be totally happy with. If we weren't being slapped in the face all the time with no, you're bad. You're different. Yeah. Oh, you're that's that.
Sarah Selecky:
Yes. The oppositional.
Steve Brown:
Yeah. So when we, I'm seeing where? So when I talked about Steven pressfield book with you before this conversation about the art of war? No, the War of Art
Sarah Selecky:
The War of art. Yeah.
Steve Brown:
Okay, so it now I'm seeing why now I'm starting to see the backstory of of you talking about the other side of the War of Art?
Sarah Selecky:
Mm hmm. Yeah, um, I mean, the nature there is, there is something in just in the title that, that it's about war, it's a war. That doesn't, it's a war within yourself. And, you know, something that I'll back up just a little bit in radiant shimmering light. When I wrote it. There are two characters. There's Lillian and 11, her cousin, their two cousins. And it would appear if you look at it, and you're entering the hero's journey, that they are antagonists that 11 is the antagonist to Lillian in and through writing it and understand and like really asking, my method is really asking the story what it wants to be. So not really not trying to impose some idea on the story. But really be open to the transformation that that story can provide us as the writer of it as well, because if I go into it, thinking that I know everything, the story will be very wooden, the story, I believe the story is always smarter than you are. So if you need to eat again, with the humility, you need to back away and understand that you don't know everything in order to learn anything from the creative process. through writing it that way. I understood. And it was a little bit of a troubling bit for me I was like is how is this going to work? They are not antagonists, actually. And then in in through reading it, I understood that actually, it's the system they live in that is the system is the antagonist that's holding both of them back and they are both doing their very best. It comes out in ways that that would appear to you want to there are certain scenes where you want to think 11 is is doing something wrong to Lillian or Lillian needs to achieve something over 11 they're like, but they both are doing their very best and believe in their heart of hearts, what they're doing is the best thing to do. Which in any good i mean, i given any good villain should should believe in what he's doing or she's doing. But in this case, it's not a clear villain. 11 is not a clear villain and antagonists. I only bring that up because I think that that same polarization is what's inherent in the way pressfield sees our relationship to our own resistance. It's a polarizing effect, to say that you need to like sit down and I I again, I really love that book. And you know, I use it I utilize it I use the word resistance. it's it's a it's phenomenon. The book is a phenomenon. And it should be and I think it's worth asking yourself What would it feel like if you if your resistance wasn't an opponent? What would it feel like if there was like, if there's an aspect of connectivity that you're that you want to reach in through your work as a creative person, and you don't have to fight to get there? What if it was an act of compassion and love and empathy? What if there's like, you know, just what would happen? What would happen? How would that make that better for you? And then it through my experiment in writing radiant, shimmering light, like the high pot that was one of my hypotheses going into it is like, I'm going to make this fun. For myself. I'm going to write this, even though it's a hard story, and there are things about it that aren't fun. My I'm going to come to the desk with pleasure. And this is this is directly related to reading the War of Art and being like, okay, but I'm not a soldier. Okay, so let's like, I don't want to no one's telling me to write a book. Like I'm a fiction author. This is not lucrative. This is not for my notoriety in like, reputation. This is not this is like, nobody asks me to do this. No one's paying me to do this. This is like, why would I do this? If this is hell? Why? I'm like, I unacceptable. So I'm going to do this. I love it.
Steve Brown:
Yes. But you're doing it because you're, you're wanting someone to grow from that your efforts here?
Sarah Selecky:
Well, Steve, I don't know. I don't know for sure. I don't know for sure. In written this may be this may be one of the hallmarks that's different from writing fiction. And writing a story for business purposes that, like, I don't rely, there was no one, there was no reader who I wanted to help. through writing the story. I mean, I, I guess, I wanted it to entertaining. I wanted it to be an entertaining thing. But the first person, the first person I needed to please was myself. So it feels quite narcissistic to write fiction, honestly.
Steve Brown:
But you didn't if you didn't take that if you didn't do that exercise that brought out these things that that you wanted to illustrate.
Sarah Selecky:
Yeah, okay. Yep.
Steve Brown:
That that's like the butterfly effect. Regardless, you're going to write on one positive or negative rate.
Sarah Selecky:
When you're writing certainly a first draft, you can't actually keep that front of mind. Because it will freeze you.
Steve Brown:
But it's
Sarah Selecky:
right. It's there. Sure. Excellent.
Steve Brown:
Excellent. It will freeze you. It will introduce resistance, right. And so what you're saying what you're saying is, you need to come this is great. really evaluate whether it's a sale, whether it's your your class that you put on and need to evaluate your motivation. Yeah. Is what you're Yeah,
Sarah Selecky:
yes. Yes. For me, my motivation was doing it with more love, like having more, more of a feeling of pleasure and love in my life, in my, in my work in my creative practice, and not sitting there there is this myth of the author, you know, that like, I don't know, who started it, Hemingway, or before that I've just like, you know, you just sit there and you grind and you fight and you like, it's not good. It's not good for the nervous system. It's not It's not good. Like it's a very grinding way I would say it's more of a hero's journey approach than the heroines journey which is like use the technology use the feminine use the masculine come up with something that is a balance of or a balancing act, you know, of working with the structures because because having a page count or a time count or having days of the week or having a deck like necessary great and then having so much room for play and deep spontaneity and improvisation within those structures and having both at the same time I mean, that's the magic. Personally for me, sitting down and grinding away as though I'm at war with this with this resistance dragon that I have to fight and I will slay that but doesn't work it didn't doesn't work for me. It makes me feel like why am I even do it? Like I could be a barista and fight with the coffee machine and have like I do I really wouldn't need to like this is not I don't see what the benefit of this is. But the be beneath it, like getting clear about what your motivations are beneath it, you know, yes, it's more more pleasure. But I think that even deeper than that, for me the work of of making Art, being creative. I mean, storytelling is just it's a skill that I learned. And it's something that fell. But the deeper aspect of it is, is finding a way to connect finding a way to connect with something bigger than me. And bringing that, you know, not navel gazing it so yes, bringing it out. So it's not just working with my materials in order to please myself. There's a part of that. But the other aspect definitely is bringing it out to show someone but you know, it's a little bit. It's not a message. It's not like I want to bring this to make your life better. It's just like, something in how I connect to that which I don't understand the thing? Where do ideas come from? How do seeds grow? I don't know, what how do butterflies make it from Mexico to Canada, who knows, I don't know what that is, no one knows. But in connecting to that force, and bringing it out into the physical realm to share, that that's my, that's why I'm on the on the earth like that's as far as I can tell, that's what I'm here to do. So that, that needs to have more joy in it, it doesn't have to feel like a fight for me, I don't want it to feel like a fight. Because it's hard enough living, there's enough suffering in the world. You know, making art doesn't have to be part of it.
Steve Brown:
So how much of this flavor is in your writing school?
Sarah Selecky:
This is what my writing school is all about. This is what my reading school is all about. So, you know, I, I've, I have my MFA, I went through the academic experience of writing in academia, I took a lot of workshops in different avenues in different places with different teachers. And, and, and didn't find this elsewhere, which I think is also one of the marks of why entrepreneurs become entrepreneurs, because they, they looked around, they tried to find the thing, it's not there. So they'll all Yes, I'll make it. So that's what that's what my school, that's what my school is about. That's the foundation of it. So it's that mix of structure craft technique, like I don't want to just there are wonderful people out there who are working just in journaling and reflective writing and working, you know, morning pages, Julia Cameron, all like really nutritious aspects. I'm part of a writer's life. I love craft and technique, I love looking at dialogue and how to tinker with it, I love looking at structures I love looking at, like deep character work like this is these are the tools that writers have. But there is a danger in how I learned a lot of that, that work, which is without that aspect of the great unknowing underneath it all. Without that, like the willingness I try to teach my writers to learn all of that, practice it show up and practice it. And then also really cultivate that part of you that doesn't know and be okay with that uncertainty. In fact, dance with it, and learn that if you can let go of controlling so much about your story and your characters, while at the same time, which feels like a paradox. But again, whether paradox, there's truth. So at the same time, being really skilled around the things you can control, you know, like, like language and dialogue and technique and character and setting and point of view and all the rest of those aspects. If you can do both at the same time, if you're practiced at both at the same time, then you can actually create something that that is original in original meaning like it originates from you that that only you could write, that will stand that will feel beautiful and true. I mean, that's where quality comes from. That's where the good writing comes from, is balancing those aspects. And I think that's a lifelong, that's a lifelong thing, you know, to balance your, the, the create the creative, the flow of creativity, along with the structure that creativity needs.
Steve Brown:
So it feels like you know, our brains want something familiar, yet unexpected. feels like to me what you're talking about feels like a dojo, where we're going to explore a little a lot of we're going to honor the the universal applications of story we need to know about them. We, in order to go to this deeper place, we have to experience those and have confidence to be comfortable. Out of control. Yes, and I relate with that is like there's a time when you're running a business. And you feel like you need to control everything. But the truth is you can't and if that's where you stop and measure your worth, then you're a failure every day because you get slapped in the you turn around, and there's something new there every day and you have to be clear confident not knowing the answer and not being in control. And it feels like to me you're you're wanting to design this Brazilian Jiu Jitsu I, yeah, writing, what kind of people are attracted to this
Sarah Selecky:
it is, um, you know. So it is like a dojo, it is like, very much like our practice exercises are wax on wax off, while at the same time doing this other. I have the best people, you can wear whatever you want. Let that totally lots of pajamas. You just have to find That's right. It's not defined, but just I do I do say rituals very important. So as long as you bring the same thing to your desk, every day, your training, you can train the train together, but the people who in our classes are the best, they're the best people. They're unique. And if I I can't say that they all come from one like who the people are. But I do know some of the qualities are a curiosity. And like a, an understanding, they're really talented, often very talented people who have put that talent into a box in order to make money off of it. So lawyers, I mean, lawyers love language they love story it's like is, so a lawyer who's been working in that field for a really long time. Because, you know, they were good with words they were they were ready, they wanted to be a writer. And you know, you can't make a living as a writer. So you go into that a lot of people working in communications, communication, so like, there are so many creatives and accounting creatives in finance creatives, and who find their way in through communications, and they write, you know, government, places where there's like, some structure that's reliable, that I feel like that industry has just like seen their creative their creativity, and been like that, that's what we that's what we want. That's what we need. But you know, there's like a few too many straps, to mention too few too many straps for there to be something that's not well, there's something that's playful in there. So the other the other, we have a good stream of people who have gone through creative writing programs in undergrad or at or just in high school or post secondary level or in a master's level, who then need to recover from that. They, for one reason or another, unfortunately didn't have a good experience. in an academic setting. Usually, it had to do with critical criticism. So not everyone, some people really, like they really love being in like they shine and flourish from being in the arena of criticism of not even constructive criticism, it gives them more fuel, not everybody, not everyone, there are a lot of really beautiful writers who don't do well in that environment. And it's not because if you're not a good writer, you can't take critique, it's not the case at all. It's just sometimes sometimes being when when your work is still in seedling form. to, to have it to have it judge evaluated before it even knows what it is yet can actually kill the plant. So that so I do have a lot of people in my school who have who are in recovery, and are coming back to their work after thinking that they couldn't do it for whatever reason. Because their experience in an MFA program or an undergrad writing Creative Writing Program was not fruitful for them. So we do some we do some healing work there around, coming back to what they actually loved about it and seeing that actually, they know how to do this. And it's just another environment is better soil for them to grow in.
Steve Brown:
Love that. That was one of the things when I was writing my book is I didn't want anyone to see. I didn't want anyone to see it. Because no, I was rowing the direction I was rowing. And I was discovering these things that I didn't expect. And so these things were coming out of me, but yet they needed to time to grow before they Yeah, just the little known little duckling needs a little time where it's gonna go out and,
Sarah Selecky:
you know, can I ask like, did you how did you know to do that
Steve Brown:
I was coached by th folks to do that, which I think I was going to do it anyway. Bu the last thing you want to d is ask a bunch of people's opin on on an uninformed wh ther it's like I've done it ll my life, you know, like, I got this great idea and you hrow it out there and then ever body just just yeah, you kno , put cigarettes out on it and Whatever. And yeah, so Oh, guess it was stupid. But w at I was wondering why I didn't ealize what I was wanting was, ere's here's a starting of a conversation, what? What pe spectives? Can you mix in there nd come up with something tot lly different, but the safety di n't exist? And then plus you so you're talking about people ave experienced the unsafety ide of that. And so they do ne d a way to come in and be unders ood and and come out of their hell.
Sarah Selecky:
Yes. Right. And CNBC, without, without adjudication, like the one of the things that we do that's different, and and this, you know, this is controversial, it's like, it's a controversial thing in the school when people sign up because they want the criticism there's, it's so deeply ingrained in us in writers that you need to put like, it's, it's a whole trope, the whole thing that you need to put yourself on the cutting block, and just like, be push and not mean, that's how you gain your resilience and strength as a writer is like having people tell you what's not working, so you can make it better. And, you know, there is space for that, definitely. And there's a lot of it out there, you can get that if you want elsewhere. In our school, we start for a very long time, we practice giving feedback that is like that, but it's only the positive, when it's not just I like this, this is so good. This is so good. It's actually very, very specific, craft based feedback on what is working and why. And every week people need to because you're training, you're teaching it, that's how you're teaching yourself how to write, by telling, by seeing what's working, it's always easier to see in someone else's work other than your own. So it's not even in receiving positive feedback or feedback about what lent so you learn what lens with your other with your fellow classmates. It's the act of looking at someone's work, finding out where locating yourself, what stands out what sparkles for you, and then putting words on it, articulating the craft of how they made that what were the mechanisms, craft based mechanisms that made that stand out for you, and what part of it is just like a magic thing that you don't understand. And, and having space for both. And then in articulating that to another person, you're wiring your brain, you're teaching yourself how to do it. That's, that's, that's where so much of the learning comes from. Yeah, so we do a lot of that.
Steve Brown:
I think that for me, you know, if I think about when I started, Steven, you'd write a book you need to write Yeah, but I don't just want to write a book to write a book, I want to write a book that, that has my unique perspective. And value add to, to initiate has a lot of books about this anyway. But But how? How do you differentiate yourself amongst your other competitors? peers, we have to demonstrate your your knowledge in some way that's consumable, and palatable and right. And for a niche audience. But yes, but my self identity changed from Why? Who are you that you should even consider that to, hey, I'm kind of good at this. And actually, you know, that the way I saw myself changed, but it came from, from feedback, one go, and you're kind of a natural at this here, Steve, and I'm going I am, you know, I didn't know until I got in there doing the exercises, so to speak. Okay. That's why I was thinking dojo when you were talking. Yeah. You know, what? You don't know until you practice
Sarah Selecky:
you can't know, you can't know before you do it. And in the practice. The other thing about practice that's wonderful is that you hone your skills. So all that stuff that anybody can learn, you learn. But then, over time, your confidence builds. So you put more of the unliveable, which is your desire, your motivation, your passion, your voice, your the stuff that's like, that's just you, it's the stuff that originates in your heart. And you put that the skills that you learn, are, are a way that the thing that comes from your heart can come out and be formed. And that always will stand out. It will always stand out from your peers because it's not derivative, it's by its own nature, it's not derivative. So it always will be just yours if you can have the confidence to write from that place. And I think that having a lot of practice builds the confidence.
Steve Brown:
Yeah. So. So someone's been listening to this great conversation, by the way, you're awesome guest.
Sarah Selecky:
Oh, thank you. I'm really nice.
Steve Brown:
So where should they seek you out to learn more about you have several versions of classes kind of a doing lot. Yeah, yeah. A guy by the side and then on
Sarah Selecky:
Yes, yeah, yeah, I do some consult, I do some consultations one on one, I have a downloadable self paced program that is all of the things that we just talked about that you can do on your own. And then every year, we have a full semester of really high touch guided lots of feedback, accountability, small classes, four month program that's based on that downloadable program. So that's the story course, is the one you can do on your own. And the story intensive is the one that starts in September, and it goes till December every year. And then there are a bunch of other there are lots of other things on there, and some free resources and community aspects is a contest we run. There's lots of other stuff we do at the school. But the main aspect is the story course, and the story intensive. That's sort of foundational.
Steve Brown:
So where you going next?
Sarah Selecky:
Where am I going next? in the school?
Steve Brown:
your school, your book here?
Sarah Selecky:
Yeah, this is quite a this is quite, this is quite Crux that we're at right now, just all of us, at this moment, being at home. Having an online school that we've been working on for the past decade has put us in a really fortunate position to continue offering what we do best to people who maybe need it who wouldn't have thought about coming to an online writing school before. So we are thinking about how to make it more available to more people. And thinking about a membership site, we're beta testing a membership site right now and looking into that, how that would, how that would build a community over the long term, which is really what we're all all about. And just as I was saying earlier, like that trust of that trust that comes from showing up over and over and over with people, writers really show up well, there. It's a long game. So I think a membership site might be really nice for them. So working on how to reach our writers in a way that they can stay with us over the long game. And I'm writing a new book, and I just actually this morning began transcribing my first draft, which is all in pen and ink, and I'm just starting to transcribe it. I don't know what it is yet. I feel nervous. But I've just given myself a container
Steve Brown:
your opinions and critique it and
Sarah Selecky:
You probably won't hear anything about it for some time. But we'll see I did. I did write this draft very quickly. So my my hypothesis for myself this time was you don't have to labor over it in time. So you've already figured out like the last book, I realized it doesn't have to be an unpleasant labor. And this this hypothesis, the challenge I set for myself is you can go through that portal in a short amount of time you have access to that portal, the portal of imagination and creativity at any moment. So you can do this very quickly. So I I did write the first draft in three months, and we'll see. We'll see what it is. I don't know it's still in a hypothesis form.
Steve Brown:
Great. Well, I've really enjoyed you Sarah, on the ROI online podcast here. As I said, You're a great guest and I look forward to seeing your your work. And you folks that are listening, reach out to Sarah and go through her dojo.
Sarah Selecky:
Yeah, find me. I will give them their RF address. You can find me at Sarah elecky.com, which is easy. O SarahSeleckywritingschool.com. They both kind of go to the same sort of places. So you can just enter it either at either portal and reach me there.
Steve Brown:
She'll teach you to catch a fly with chopsticks to ride on one leg. All right.
Sarah Selecky:
That's it magic. Thank you so much for having me. This is a great conversation.
Steve Brown:
That's fun. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet at surprise, that golden toilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast.
