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Podcaster Jay Wong on How to Create & Maintain a Successful Podcast: The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 53

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What separates a thriving podcast that reaches iTunes no. 1 spot and a podcast no one’s ever heard about? On this episode of the ROI Online Podcast, podcaster Jay Wong shares the formula he uses to help clients create successful, profitable podcasts.

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You may know Jay Wong from his highly successful podcast, The Inner Changemakers Podcast. However, he actually has been behind some of the biggest podcast launches in the thought leadership space. This is because Jay has honed a podcast strategy that delivers serious results, even if the podcaster doesn’t feel like their content has what it takes to make it to a no. 1 spot in iTunes.

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When he first started his podcast, Jay didn't have an audience or a business or a product. He didn’t even have an email list. He was just trying to figure out how to get his platform in front of the right people. And he did that by inviting people with large audiences onto his show and pushing content out on a consistent, regular basis. This same strategy (with some optimization for different platforms) has delivered success for his clients again and again.

Among other things, Jay and Steve discussed:

  • What you need to start a thriving, successful podcast
  • The power of audio platforms and why they deliver results
  • How YouTube’s algorithm compares to traditional podcasting
  • Whether you should push out something just to do it if you’re out of content
  • The 5 Connectors you should use to tell stories that excite


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Also available wherever else you get your podcasts.

You can learn more about Jay here:

podcastyourbrand.co
Listen to Jay’s podcast: The Inner Changemakers Podcast


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Topics: Marketing, Podcasts

Jay Wong: 

I think there's an important distinction to make here. Because even let's just take YouTube as an example. Right? I mean that first of all, it's it's a very different algorithm, right? For podcasting, versus YouTube, right? YouTube is a very, very big on search on depending on who you chat with, you know, keywords, plays plays a role. But let's say in YouTube, in the YouTube world, I think there's a very important distinction to make. There are individuals that are making money, or that they're making videos, so that they can be seen as an authority, right, and they depending on what they're selling, it's going to be more of a quantity game for them. They want to be able to blow up on YouTube. And by the way, on YouTube, that works, right, if the more you publish, the more you're creating content for YouTube's algorithm, the more it plays into your favor.

Steve Brown: 

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the ROI online podcast where we believe you. The courageous entrepreneurs of our day, are the invisible heroes of our economy. You not only improve our world with your ideas, your grit and your passion, but you make our world better. I'm Steve Brown. And this is a place where we have great conversations with winners just like you while we laugh and learn together. Jay Wong, welcome to the ROI online podcast.

Jay Wong: 

Thank you, Steve Brown, excited to be here.

Steve Brown: 

So you've got this company called podcast your brand. You've even got a podcast called inner Changemaker show. But you've been behind some of the biggest, most successful podcast launches in the thought leadership space. Your podcast, even in 2015 was the number one podcast in the self help area and what's hot. What made you this magic man that can pull all this off?

Jay Wong: 

You know, Steve, we just recently launched two different podcasts is about two weeks apart. And one was in the alternative health space. I think they got anywhere from they were in the top, they were in the top 100. I'm just trying to think of the spot. I think somewhere between top 50 and top 100. We did another show relationship show. They launched last Tuesday. And they were already up on I think 47 was the highest spot that they got to on the iTunes chart. We're trying to figure it out on the Spotify charts. But it's still kind of new. And we feel like we don't really have enough data. We don't know anybody at Spotify, certainly. So that doesn't necessarily help our case. But the reason I share that with you is because we still get people into the top 100. It's just that that was one of the first pieces that I accidentally, you know, figured out for myself. I didn't have an audience, I didn't have a business. I didn't have a product. I didn't have an email list. I didn't have a social I don't have millions of followers, I still don't have millions of followers. And and and I was really trying to figure out how do I just get this platform out there? Right, I figured the more could get out there, probably the greater the chances are people get I get a chance to be introduced to others, others get a chance to be introduced to me. But also, if I asked the Steve Browns of the world to come on the show, right? It's actually kind of a nice energy exchange, you know, I get to feature them on a great little platform. Right? This is what 2015 Jay was thinking, you know, and so I was fortunate enough to be, you know, went to a couple different, you know, meetups and dinners, and I heard of podcast launch strategies, things in 2015. Wasn't there certainly not what they are today, where everything gets broken down. There's Facebook groups, there's big podcasting conferences and events. Back in 2015, things were really just kind of ramping up, right. I don't know, if you remember that, you know, that that time there was, you know, one notable podcast conference, you know, and even then it might have had maybe 1000 people, which, which is still pretty significant. But nowadays, right? Even your local podcast conference would probably have, you know, hundreds and, you know, maybe 1000 ish individuals, right? And, you know, for me, I started figuring out pieces of this, right, and the first piece of it was hitting the top 100 because you're essentially launching with the biggest splash, right and as you know, when podcasting gets a lot of internal traffic, you know, I didn't figure out all these things about new traffic and, you know, dynamic ads, I didn't figure any of that stuff out until a lot later. But in the beginning, the I took different strategies that people had given me around how to promote their book, how to promote a course. Right? And essentially just boiled it. No, I was trying everything on the day of launch. And what I noticed, was working. I just figured, what if we just go all in on this little aspect of the launch strategy? And what if we just ride this? And let's just see. Right? And that ended up having just a massive impact. And you can imagine someone's just starting out, no email list, no product, you know, no traction, right, outside of the the for podcast is you've managed to record and put together yourself. You know, that was obviously super exciting. You know, but what I love your show, because you talked about the the second part of the equation, right now, I would argue probably even the most important part of the equation, which is the ROI side of things, right? So it's good to get people into the top 100. It's good to have that in the metrics, it's good to have, you know, notoriety authority with all those things. But then the question comes, what are we going to do with it? Yeah, where are we going to funnel that traffic and attention and awareness to? And and what's really the end game for each business and each brand? And that's what we do. We drink coffee, and we figure those strategies out with with all of our clients.

Steve Brown: 

So I'm thinking here, you know, the folks that listen to this, they're going Okay, first of all, when I've suggested to clients, hey, you ought, um, you ought to consider starting a podcast, where you can see in the back of their mind, it's like, no, way, dude. But it's like, Where do I begin the startup podcast? Right? And, and so I've been thinking about that. And I'm going Yeah, it does. Because, first of all, to push out your first episode, there's a lot behind that there's this whole system. First of all, you have to figure out how to trick someone into being your first victim, or or interview on the on the podcast, right?

Jay Wong: 

Yeah.

Steve Brown: 

How am I gonna record it?

Jay Wong: 

How, by the way, those strategies around this, right? Yeah, frameworks and strategies of this.

Steve Brown: 

Yes. But this is this big monster that's first appears. And when you say, I think I want to start a podcast, how am I going to do all this stuff? What do I do? What do I start, there's all this advice. And then, and then you get your episode ready, and then you're gonna push it out when this little mini rowboat just kind of push it out in the water and hope it doesn't sink, you know, in the first episode, and, and so the whole system behind it, of getting it set up, then the system of what you're going to do when people start listening to it is important. And then once you kind of get those in place, I'm really interested in learning. How do you make a big Cannonball splash with your podcast after it's ready for primetime? There's this time one, maybe it's not ready for primetime. I went to this conference one time. Yeah, and this guy, I don't remember the name of this guy. But it was one of like a little 20 minute thing. And it was about the difference between going viral. And being a one hit wonder. In the whole essence of of it, how not to be a one hit wonder was the one that went viral Finally, and into her. I don't remember her name. But now she has a whole makeup community company, she's young. But she had done all these makeup videos for, I don't know, a year or two, before one of them finally went viral. And then she had all the backup to all the other videos that solidified a brand coming to her and going, Hey, we want you to take it on into the endzone as opposed to this guy that came out of a tent. And he started crying, you know, as like how beautiful it was. And it went viral. And then he tried to do another one and it went dud. And so that's what I'm interested in is your piece fits in when you're ready for primetime.

Jay Wong: 

See, it's it's quite, it's quite smart that you bring this up, because I think we both probably been asked, and I think the assumption a lot of times is, Hey, I'm going to start those podcasts and I'm going to go go viral, and I'm going to go make millions those that's the three step process of success. Right. And if it's not podcasting, let's switch that out to whatever is relevant in today's market. Zack hay net, let's let's do 60 days of tech talks, right? And let's post three times a day. Right? And one of them is going to go viral, then we're going to make money, right? High five, high five everybody in Go team. Right. And, and I think a lot of times business owners, personal brands, thought leaders, they get sucked into a little bit of a version of that. Yeah, right. Because and we both know that if you don't have the I love that you bring up this example because like that makeup, you know individual right by the way, my my partner, my girlfriend, she's in that beauty makeup niche, right? I mean she's working with, you

Steve Brown: 

know, your data. This is going to be excellent but your internet connection. Oh,

Jay Wong: 

okay. Am I back?

Steve Brown: 

Yeah, so you're going yellow, you were red. Okay, now now we're on I hate to miss where we're going here. So that's why,

Jay Wong: 

yeah, no, no, I appreciate you bringing that up. Action. So look, my partner, she's in this beauty niche, right? She works with some of the bigger brands in Italy. She's originally from Italy, right? So she works with Sephora, Italy, she works with like, just the biggest brands of beauty makeup, she has her own product, right? But what I'm saying is it's there's infrastructure there, there's a way of capitalizing on that traffic, right. And she did not just wake up one day and said, Hey, I'm gonna go do this, it's been years of videos, and, you know, twice a week, three times a week, let's try daily, let's go, let's try vlogs. Let's try this, right. And there is a lot of you know, if that is ultimately the end game, that I think you the individual has to buy in to, I love this medium, right, I would do this medium if I don't get the ROI from it, you know, and hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get my repetitions and I'm gonna get my broadcasting podcasting chops in so that when it's ready, right, when I'm ready, the moment kind of presents itself. You know, I just think that for business owners, like active business owners that chances are they have a sales process in place, right? Chances are, they have some proven funnels or proven products, their path to monetize position is very different. Right, their path of monetization could be very immediate, right? if done properly. So I think it just matters kind of where you're at, in that spectrum, having that awareness, right and seeing if audio storytelling in this way, right? Forget the video, but like storytelling, through audio, sharing some of these, you know, the way that you create content, if the the CEO or the business owner can get in tune with that. The benefits that come with that, I think, you know, is just so tremendous.

Steve Brown: 

I think it's amazing, because, you know, our brains love voices. I mean, ever since we were just little babies, voices read us stories, our brain takes over and fills in all the details. But we're not kind of it seems like voice coming in is like fiber optic speed communication and, and details and, and feeling. Whereas just reading text, your brains having to do more work to put in the details. And hopefully they're putting it's putting on the right details. But most often, it's not picking up on all the nuances that comes through invoice.

Jay Wong: 

There's also an intimacy. Yes. voice that is, I think, unparalleled, right, I just think, and I get it because, you know, I know a lot of people show pretty much, you know, we can argue what's too much to show online these days. Right. And there are so many people that show a lot of things online, right, but I just find with voice when it comes to any level of teaching. When it comes to any level of Blitz, Brett, Hey, Steve, this, this, you know, I have this client, this is what they're going through, let me share this story with you any type of context that you would like to kind of take the time on and then just explain a little bit, right, there's just this level of intimacy that gets created. And I think personally, that's part of the magic of audio. You know, that's, that's right. You're in between, you know, you're you're, you're they're literally listening to you. And you kind of encapsulate them in your world for those 15 minutes for that hour for you know, for those two hours. Right. And I think that that's that is definitely part of the beauty of it.

Steve Brown: 

You literally in their ear. Yes. Well, while they're doing something, you can remember a time you heard something, and where you were, what you were doing when you heard there's, there was a podcast I was listening to and I got so much out of it. But I remember where I was walking when I was listening to it. That's crazy that our brains work that way.

Jay Wong: 

Yeah, I think it's also I mean, we've had people and this is a few years ago, were just like, just like the the whole different con types. idea, right? I'm sharing all sorts of details contents, you know, just just sharing as much of my life and my journey as possible at that time. And we'd hop on calls with, like, prospective clients. And they would say, Well, you know, hey, you you were at the gym with me, you know, the other day. Exactly. Like, I'm like, trust me, my girlfriend's she would definitely disagree with you. Right? Are you sure it's me? Did we hop on the right call? Right there? Like, no, no, you're in the car with me? Yeah. Gardening with me? Like, I know. So you know, how's how's your girlfriend doing? How did the fight go? Right. And it's like, this is borderline a little creepy, right. But it kind of shows you the power of audio and the intimacy you can have with it. And a lot of people, a lot of times if they consume the nurturing content that a business owner puts out there, right? A lot of times, what we're really doing is we're just optimizing for that enrollment call or that sales call. And it doesn't really even end up being one of those conversations, because it's more like, Hey, I now understand Steve, your values, I now understand where you stand, I understand why you run all your clients through your IP, your framework, right? And I want to work with you to be able to achieve those results in my life, my business,

Steve Brown: 

precisely, I heard this great quote the other day, it says people first have to buy you before they buy what you do. And so when you say, hey, you were at the gym with me the other day, you were in the garden with me the other day. That's what they're you're experiencing life with them in a way, but they're, they're allowing you in there and they're buying into you, because they're learning about you and they're starting to trust you. And you never shook their hand.

Jay Wong: 

Yeah. And especially nowadays, right, where everybody's working from home, right, the whole world's going virtual in a matter of months. Look, there's a lot of new patterns, new activities that are being developed, right. And as much as I would love to say, hey, mean, Steve, we met at this mastermind together, we met at this conference together, you know, we're on the same panel together, whatever it is, right? That, you know, for the time being, at least, right, this is how people are getting a chance to engage and one of the amazing time to be alive, because, you know, we could both be in very different spots, very different time zones, you know, and, and somebody else could be listening this in a very, very, like the other side of the planet. And it might be three months after this comes out might be a year after this comes out, you know, some of our clients, they're still getting based on content that we created with them back in 2018. They're still getting prospective clients referencing certain keywords and certain names from some of those episodes in 2018. On their intake forms in their applications, right. And it's a well, if it doesn't get does it not get any better than that? Right. From an evergreen offer standpoint, if your business is at a spot where you know that, you know that that's that's going to be how your business is going to be in even a couple years.

Steve Brown: 

Absolutely. Well, let's learn a little bit about che Juan. Where'd you grow up?

Jay Wong: 

So I'm just outside of Toronto right now. I spent the first 10 years growing up in Canada. I did what I call my developmental years, the real years, you know, in the US, so we moved to Maryland and I grew up in Maryland, middle school, high school there. ended up coming back to to Canada to Ottawa for for Business School. But yeah, geographically, we bounced, you know, between the US and Canada quite a bit. have family in both countries. Most of our clients are in the US. So you know, when the world is a bit normal. Try to you know, at least go to the US a couple of different times depending on conferences and what happened.

Steve Brown: 

Some what, what happened, what triggered this event that made you super interested in podcasting stuff? Why wouldn't somebody in 2015 actually, and you're young, you're young, you're not that you're not 70 something years old with this long track record of all this. What makes you

Jay Wong: 

Steve Asian genetics, man. I'm like 1000 years old. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut off here. No,

Steve Brown: 

I'm just going yeah. what's the what's so did you do Is this your grandfather help you with some wax on wax off stuff What? What happened that you just saw this opportunity? And then it really resonated with you? Yeah.

Jay Wong: 

It's a great question because it's something that I've thought about for the last five, six years podcasting is literally, it's changed my life. And it's just so I always said back in the day, and I still think it, which is, if let's take out all the ROI, out of the conference rooms, let's take out the marketing lens on it. Let's just say you only get the podcast, there's zero monetization strategies. Okay, there's no money to be made. Okay? You only just get to podcasts. Okay. And I still think at minimum, Steve, at minimum, it's one of the best life hacks at at absolute minimum, it is going to supercharge your entire network, it is going to make you an exceptional communicator, an exceptional storyteller. And it's going to get your mind rolling on all the things you could do from a repurposing content marketing standpoint. Right. So you really can't keep business and marketing out of it for that long. Right. That's, I think, you know, that for me, I think it's one of the biggest life hacks. So I think for me, one of the biggest things was, when I was just starting out, I understood that I didn't want to send an email to say, Hey, Steve, can I pick your brain on subject matter a subject matter? Be? Right? I've just get lumped in with everybody else. I also didn't want to say, Hey, Steve, I admire the work that you're doing. So let me take you out to lunch. Because chances are, you can buy your own lunch, right? And chances are, you could buy your own dinner and you don't want necessarily for me to take you out to dinner or lunch is so much pressure behind, right? So how can I approach some of these conversations, and and these mentors, these people that I admire their work, their work has made a big difference in my life, I read their book, and it helped me shift one little thing, you know, and I, you know, and or, you know, I got their book as a present. And I just resonated with a concept of framework from it. How do I give thanks to them? Right? How do I make it about them? And not about me? Right? No. And so I thought, what a better way to then to invite them on a platform, right? I didn't really have too much of a platform at that time. But maybe I can help them get their message out there. Because clearly, they're very refined. Clearly they've invested years and years of their life decades at times, right? We've interviewed some some people that were three times my age at the time, right, Bob Proctor, I know what would hit that category. You know, this is a man who spent 55 years, right, taught, you know, talking about motivation, mindset, abundance, beliefs, all this type of stuff, you know, could I could I not learn something from him? Right? Could I not help and leverage that interaction and get and help other people and inspire them and to look into Bob's work? Heck, I don't have any products. That's okay. Right. And so this is kind of a little bit of my mindset when when I was approaching podcasting, from the traction business, you know, grow standpoint. I tried other things. It's not that I didn't try, you know, blogging, it's not that I didn't try videos, you know, I didn't have any type of social presence. So it's like, Okay, I got to go learn how to make these quotes, maybe on some apps or Canva, right? And then, you know, where am I? Where am I pulling these quotes from? You know, so then it's like, okay, let's the top 100 quotes there. It sounds like, you know, you're trying things, you're trying to make some traction and momentum. But I just remember the feeling. And I think a lot of podcasters and creators resonate with this, which is, I figured out how to record. Okay, like, I figured out how to press the record button, and then have me do a test. 1212. Right. And then I realized that I could say anything I want, I could sit right, I could I could share about, Hey, I had a great interaction with Steve Brown, he asked me this really great question. This is what I said, actually. And let me expand on that. Right. And I could take any type of storytelling format and apply it in my own way. Right? We remind our clients a lot of times, hey, look, we're working with you so that you can become the voice for, you know, relationships, you know, we're working with you. So you can become the voice for conscious families or, you know, business growth or whatever it is, right. But through this process, a lot of times it's about helping our clients find their voice. Yeah. And I think for me, that was what resonated with me on a very deep level in the beginning, because I didn't really and I think everybody starting out you you don't really know who you really are, you're not exactly sure what type of expertise you can add. I'm not really sure what type of value you can add. I remember, you know, taking an online course my first online course at that time, and write about like week three or week four, they're like, Okay, you got to go and create your offer so that you could go and sell it. Right I go I What, what kind of offer Do I need to create, right? How am I supposed to figure this out in the beginning Right. And I understand different people have different starting points. But for me, that was a very big, those are some of the things I was thinking about, right? How do I provide value to everybody that I come in interaction with, right? You know, at minimum, just from the conversation, you know, to how can I figure out how to find my voice, find out what I'm really great at. And podcasting was probably the last thing on my list, right, that I thought I could probably teach, you know, Hey, Steve, I can tell you about you know how to do this. Hey, Steve, I can tell you about how to do that, because I've lived it, right. But after a while of doing it, other business owners and other entrepreneurs started reaching out to me and say, Hey, I love I've been listening to your show for X amount of time now, months, weeks, right? I love what you're doing. I'd love to do the same thing in my world, because I'm I'm an expert in real estate. I'm an expert in MLM I'm an expert, right? And so it's like, well, how can then how can we help those experts and those business owners get the message out to the right people.

Steve Brown: 

So that's when you kind of stumbled into your finding your voice? is when people started to react to what you were producing.

Jay Wong: 

I think it's about you know, I remember having a conversation with Joe Polish Joe Polish runs, you know, Genius Network, one of the more notable, you know, that one of these masterminds that bring in some of the world's you know, brightest minds. Yeah. And, you know, he had said in like an old interview, but I'm sure he would agree with it today, which is, if you're not selling something, right, you're not really like a business, you know. And I think for a lot of people that are maybe just starting out, when you don't have the whole back end figured out, it's very important that you try different offers different ways of validating not yourself, but what is actually creating the most value in the marketplace. And I would say even Who do you want to make a difference for? Who do you want to spend time with? Right? Who do you want to like geek out with? Who do you want to dive into their mind their business? Is it relationships? Is it health and fitness? Right? There's no right or wrong? You know, it's just that what makes the most sense for you, and what makes the most sense for your clients. Right. And so I, I had a few different iterations. And I would probably say, I resisted podcasting for years, like I resisted teaching it, right? Because I go, Hey, you know, guys, I'm not really this, like, podcast, like, guy, I just, I know a few things. And, you know, I know how it connects to your, your marketing. But you know, I could teach you about mindset, right? I could teach you about being a Changemaker, I could teach you about some of these. So it's not like I went, you know, with it. Right, there was a lot of resistance around that, you know, it's just that I came to the conclusion that, you know, I could continue to fight for what I believe that I want, right, or I could actually listen to the marketplace, and realize that there are business owners and businesses and brands out there that they, they don't look at what I know, as just information, like it's highly valuable to them, because their business is at a point where they can add another six, seven figures by being able to do this, right, because they have the ammunition, they have the offers the the community, they have the retention strategies in place. And that's where I started to see that I would love to obviously spend more time with them. And I think what we're bringing to the table provides, you know, a tremendous amount of value.

Steve Brown: 

I want to pause here just for a moment and talk to you about a program that we have just released called ROI quickstart Academy for authors. Every day, I talk to business owners just like you who struggle with quickly getting their fundamentals in place. We want to create a great foundation, and we want to grow our business. But the things that are in our way, our lack of knowledge about the specifics, we should put in place, what kind of technology what kind of messaging and what kind of campaigns and that problem exists for authors as well. And we just chill so good with authors because, well, I'm an author, and I understand everything that you struggle with, you have a great idea you have a great book, but what do you want to do? You want to get your book in front of more people, you want to make it easy for them to find you learn how they can schedule a time to talk with you hire you for a conference, or maybe sign up for the services that your book promotes. So what is the Quickstart Academy for authors? Imagine working with a small group of like minded authors and the experts from the ROI quickstart Team, it's a great way to get your message in clear to be confident with the technology in your marketing automation, and how to run a strategic campaign to get you more of what you want from the investment of your book. To learn more about the Quickstart Academy for authors, you can visit ROI online.com, or click in the link in the show notes below. And now, back to this episode. So when I think about the podcasting platforms, when I think about YouTube, I wrote a book. And so I learned about the Amazon platform, you think about blogs, there are strategies on how you enter and optimize your splash. How are you going to immediately be indexed, and picked up and show up in searches and all these things? And each one, there's a common theme about how the basic general thing that you should do? Where did you know? Where did you start, like really picking up on the podcast version of this? And before he answer that, I was blown away by how big the YouTube platform is, as a video, everyone, I think, is been convinced, we need to start a YouTube channel and put some videos on there. But you don't realize, I don't know a billion YouTube channels. But then when you compare it to the podcast ecosystem, it's like, you can show up and be in big, big house on the block, compared to YouTube, where you just a little bitty apartment and a big giant city of apartments, you know, talk to us a little bit about when you start to recognize that and why.

Jay Wong: 

So I think there's an important distinction to make here. Because even let's just take YouTube as an example. Right? I mean, that first of all, it's, it's a very different algorithm, right? For podcasting, versus YouTube, right. YouTube is a very, very big on search on depending on who you chat with, you know, keywords, plays plays a role. But let's say in YouTube, in the YouTube world, I think there's a very important distinction to make, there are individuals that are making money, or that they're making videos, so that they can be seen as an authority, right, and they depending on what they're selling, it's going to be more of a quantity game for them, they want to be able to blow up on YouTube. And by the way, on YouTube, that works, right, if the more you publish, the more you're creating content for YouTube's algorithm, the more it plays into your favor, right. The second, I think, the The second type of, you know, individual that thinks of YouTube is, Hey, I'm a business owner, I run a brand or I run multiple businesses, I want to leverage video to drive ROI, right? Those are two very different mindsets, right, those are just, you know, two very different action steps and game plans in terms of how to make it work. Right. That's why you have people on one side that have millions of followers, right, that their income, you know, as good as they might think it is, would be almost laughable, in a small to medium sized business type of world. Right? versus there are other, you know, shows out there with very little subscribers, right. So you might look at it at a quick glance and say, that's not really a big deal. Right. But I you know, but they're actually closing clients from their videos.

Steve Brown: 

Right? Right.

Jay Wong: 

And so, I didn't know this, I didn't know this distinction, I just thought everyone kind of just viewed it as, hey, Liz, this is let's let's use this media channel, let's get our messages out there. And then it just kind of like it comes to like a talent competition, right, like, you're gonna be really good, then people are gonna like you right like that. That's how simplistically, I looked at it, you know. And the same applies for podcasting, when I got invited to speak at a lot of these podcasts and conferences back in 2016 2017, even early 2018. And what I realized was that more and more people were kind of falling into that first group, right, they wanted to be able to blow up on the medium, right, but they, for whatever reason, had a lot of resistance around different offers, that did, you know, the business model behind it, they didn't really want to put in the work to build the business or the back end behind it, which, you know, I guess it makes sense on some level, right? Because in the way that you can tell this is dependent on the question that they're asking. Right. And and I saw this right in the beginning, you know, people would would, you know, enroll with like a course. Like I would teach like live, right? And it would, you know, all their questions would pretty much be about how do they build the best studio in their basement. Exactly right. And then they go ahead and they build the studio, but they yet they yet they never really record anything. And even if they do they never really publish anything. Right. And there's even this term called pod fading in the podcast industry, right, which, which I'm sure you might have heard of, where people statistically speaking, most people that you know, that have a podcast, can't even hit like nine to 10 episodes, right? So they start right away, they're really excited. Hey, I got Ankur. I downloaded it, I recorded a 15 minute audio, I heard the interview of Jay and Steve, they said, it's great to do so I just got it done, checked it off the list. Right. And they never logged in again. You know? And, you know, I think the second, you know, individual, when we look at podcasting, as business owners, we think, one, the first thing I think about, can we make an extension of your business? Can we make a show that has this overarching theme behind it, that has your audience in mind, right? Yes, we want to, you know, to get as many listeners and we want some notoriety about this, but I'll tell you a lot of the shows that we manage, they don't have massive listeners, right. And it's because we're not focusing on just the downloads, we're not focusing on just, you know, audience growth, we're really connecting that to the rest of what they have in their back end. Right. And so for to go back to your question, the reason I share all this is because that took me like a like a really long time, like, probably longer than I'm willing to admit, for sure, to really understand that if I can stop seeing the content that I'm creating, and stop seeing, like the podcasts or the YouTube, like, whatever it is, I'm creating and start like, like, I think people get to a point where they start demanding money, right from their audience, you know, and maybe not like verbally and physically, but psychologically, it starts happening, right? Where they start making, they feel like they're putting in so much time, so much energy, and yet the return is not there. Right. And so they're there starts building this resentment towards something right towards something that we just talked about earlier, that is supposed to be this gift, that is supposed to be this, this privilege for you to be able, you know, to have the technology to connect with whoever that you want to be able to connect with to be able to, you know, create collaborations to be able to share stories, right. And a lot of times it stems from them not figuring out are willing to do the work to figure out the ROI piece.

Steve Brown: 

Yeah, that makes sense. No, I'm just thinking while you're talking. When you first start doing this, you all you hear is your voice. Oh, I sound so awful. I sound I can't believe I sound that way. You're, it's all you're concerned about what you're going to say what you sound like, what am I going to talk about? What, what what is that. But at some point, you make this transformation where you you exit that and you're not hearing that you're not listening to that. And you're starting to focus on the quality of the stuff you're creating for. Here it is your audience. You're starting to dial in and go, Oh, my audience needs to know about this. And this. And the way that I look at it, obviously, I have a conviction about what I do is better than most, because I started the business and put all this on the line and and I get feedback from clients that appreciate what we do. That's where all of a sudden, I think something happens. And you stop being in your head and about you to start being in and bringing your best stuff to the people that really want to appreciate it.

Jay Wong: 

Yeah. Yeah. And and look, there are, you know, when it comes to like your original question of like, you know, what kind of works on the platform. The reason I think this is important is because it ends up coming out in your energy in your presence, right. And even your clarity of knowing where to drive people. You know, I think and I've been there many times in the beginning where it's just I felt like oh my God, we promised that we would release the new episode every Monday, you know, and it's Saturday morning, right? And I don't have a new episode lined up. Let me just share about something, but it ends up you end up creating content to create content for content sake. Right. And I'm not saying that that's not important. There are many times I think that because you have the skills of communication And storytelling, there are many times, especially even this year that we've seen that you might want to be able to use your voice and you don't want to add any type of ad or call to action to it. You're just sharing your perspective. And I get that. And I love that. I just think that once again, for business owners, there's always going to be a bit of an opportunity there, how can we be a little more intentional? How can we be a little more strategic, knowing that we're doing our first big event in January, knowing that we have a book coming out in next March, right, knowing some of these things? How can we start pre framing that for our audience, so that we can give them something that if they want to be able to dive into, right, and oddly enough, I think a lot of it has to do with like, almost like money mindsets to, you know, you know, being able to to be comfortable, saying we have things that are available for sale today, if you want to be able to do a Adobe, or be able to work with us on a closer level, right? I certainly did not have that clarity or confidence in the beginning. And I think a lot of people that just, you know, approach podcasting, without maybe some of these thoughts, they might, you know, these are things that you're probably gonna have to learn along the journey.

Steve Brown: 

So let's say that we be kind of dialed in to our message, we've got the follow up system in place, we actually have the recording and production in place. And that's a big deal. That some ways you're just saying then to accomplish. So now we're ready to start really dialing in and get better at the opportunities that are available on the podcasting platform. What are some coaches on some tactical applications? Assuming we have our strategy? Yeah, what what would you what would be some of the things that you share with your clients? Yeah.

Jay Wong: 

You know, there's definitely a lot to go right over here. And I think it's a it's an interesting question, because from a tactics perspective, right, even something as nuanced as what you named the show, right? could make a world of difference, you know. And that just I think, I hope that makes sense for your listeners, macdrive it, you know, and and I think sometimes, people hear the thought of like going niche, right, but it's almost like sometimes they take it too far. They go a little too niche. Right, I find a nice little sweet spot of being able to say, let me give you an example. Actually, I think this will probably illustrate it. We worked with a native they they're a SAS, they built their their own kind of platform. They do native advertising, programmatic, navan, native advertising, I do not, I am not an expert, I can't even I can barely say the name. And these guys, you know, they're, you know, we're talking I think there are over 200 employees now. They're certainly I think, one if not the biggest player outside of Google, in Canada. And, you know, so you know, here's the question, right, we did their podcasts with them, I think they hit number 12 on on the top 101. Upon their, their, their launch. And they were able to close clients like two, three episodes in. So like, two, three episodes, and people are like, hey, let me talk to your salesperson. Right, is that that's how fast it can be. But conversation with them. They said, well, Jay, should we just call it the native programmatic ads platform? Or, you know, podcasts? Right? Or like the podcasts for native ads? Right? Kind of like the sound of that, right? It's like, well, we could a little wordy. Um, right, they would certainly probably come up for native advertising. I can't I don't know how many, you know, shows there are right, right, right on there. But we started diving a bit deeper, like, what Who are you guys really serving? Who are you really making a difference for? Right, and long story short, they work with a lot of different marketing agencies, right? They work with all sorts of different agencies in general, actually, and agencies will essentially refer out to them, right? It's that, you know, their clients would end up using their platform. So their podcast, you could look it up, by the way, shout out to the stack adapt for being the example of this. Their podcast is called how agencies thrive.

Steve Brown: 

Cool.

Jay Wong: 

So see right away its niche. Right. But we're not starting from a native ads programmatic, you know, hey, this is what you got to do on the platform. We're not starting over there, we're starting, hey, if you run an agency, we can help you be able to grow that and accelerate that growth even further. Right. These are some of our viewpoints on today's marketing. These are some of our viewpoints on how agencies actually are able to go over the hump after this amount of revenue. All right, it becomes a completely different positioning for them, right. So that sweet spot if you could kind of Hear it or think about it. It's not to go hyper hyper niche, right. But it's the kind of go, just one or two steps, maybe above, right, so that you can kind of capture all those agencies and regardless if they work with you immediately or not, right, to be able to capture that, that does that make sense? From a title tactic standpoint,

Steve Brown: 

the same? The same process would be in play if you're going to write a book. Yeah, most important piece is going to be the title. And it's the hardest piece to really do really well. So what's what are some of the other things that you might get someone that yes.

Jay Wong: 

So, you know, I think there's, there's something that we coach our clients on, called the five connectors. And, you know, when we think of the word connector, I don't just mean like people connecting people, what I really mean is like story connector, right? Because I think, you know, we give a lot of our clients like different frameworks to play around with, you know, a simple one I can give to your clients really easy off the bat that people can just try right away, is I think it's an old copywriting framework, actually, it's called the SLP. framework. Right? So story, lesson, pitch, right? Pretty, pretty, like straightforward, right? Hey, I was doing this podcast interview with this, you know, with Steve Brown earlier today. And, you know, he had brought up this one little thing. And it actually got me thinking and reflecting on what's the lesson here, right? Well, because of that, you know, this happened, and this happened. And that, and that happened. And the main takeaway for this is, is this, you know, you got to be able to have the right show and have the right ROI plan in place. Right? What's the pitch? Well, hey, if you want help with that, right, hey, reach out to us at URL, you know, or, hey, if you maybe it's more of a social pitch, hey, you know, we're doing a, you know, a live webinar happening on our Facebook page, right, if just talking about this exact topic. So, you know, that's a very SLP I don't know if I went through it too fast, or what have you, but like, Yeah, super basic, like structure. But the five connectors, I think are things that every podcaster slash every content creator can really take to heart and think about, as they're telling their story as they're doing their solo episodes, and what have you, right? Probably don't have time to go through all five. But you know, one off the top of my mind, and probably one of my favorites, is just the tension in the episodes. Right? And I don't mean the tension, like as in like, let's have some really, really high tension within the episode. But some, I think, a lot of times, some uncomfortable moments, right. But I think you know, and you could pick up any storytelling book, and they're probably going to talk about this on some level, you know what I mean? But really, it's the question of what's at stake? Right? Hey, what's what like, tell me if you don't, if I don't figure out how to get my podcasts up and running and how to have this platform? What does that say about me? What was I thinking about? At that time? What what's at stake for me? To to figure this stuff out? Right? Like, if I start telling you some of those things, like, hey, look, I had to move back in with my parents, like, you know, they would come home every single day. And, you know, I would be like, you know, on a whiteboard, trying to figure out how to launch a product and build an audience, right? They're looking at their son, like, This man has gone insane. You know, what, why did? Why did we immigrate to North America, so that, you know, he can express himself so creatively? Right. And, and I remember I, you know, I was staying in their living room trying to figure out and reading forums and you know, podcasts just trying to figure out how to start, because I knew that if I could figure out how to start, right, that I could probably reach other individuals. I thought I had some of that natural communications, you know, talent on my side. But I wanted to do it in the way that that made sense. I wanted to be able to explode my network, right? Because that meant that my business can move forward. Right. So if you could include those tension pieces. I think a lot of times for business owners they this is this is actually something I heard recently, they suffer from what's called the experts curse, right? Where they just they know it, they know it so well. That they're just like, hey, look, in today's episode, we're going to teach you how that you could you know, you know, how you could track all your customers everywhere they go online. Okay, so guys, this is super simple. We deal with this every day. It's called retargeting, okay, what you do is you put a pixel, right? So like the episodes like four minutes, you know what I mean? Like there's no there's no like flavor to it. Right? There's no What if I don't do this? What happens to that? So tension is one The other one that I really

Steve Brown: 

like start with a see that what would he get? Where do you get the C's with attention?

Jay Wong: 

Well, yeah, that's a good point. These are story connectors. So they don't really have like an acronym to it by any means. The other one, you know that that also comes to mind, I'd love to share with your audiences presence, actually being present, you know, and having that energy. I think that's one of the gifts of, you know, podcasting or content creation in general, right, being able to be present with your customers, with your prospective customers, with people in your community. It's kind of like, you know, how big companies use podcasting is a little different. Right, they look at it as almost an internal communications tool, you know, some companies out there that are more definitely, you know, you know, thinking about, you know, forward thinking, they're, they're already at the private podcasting game, right. And that's not like super, super new. It's super new to the, you know, marketers and even consumers. But businesses have been doing this for the last few years already. Right? And so, within the business owner, like bringing this back to you to your audience, how can you kind of create that that touch point, right, that ongoing type of conversation, you know, what are the elements that you can add into your storytelling, that makes your show that much stickier that much better? So you become the voice of reason for whichever topic that you want to be able to dominate?

Steve Brown: 

Yeah, I suggested that internal podcast at one time. And I think my biggest mistake about suggesting that was I call it a podcast. And it put, put all this confusion in what, I don't have time for all of that. And I should have packaged it differently. And said, instead of you writing, you know, like a weekly newsletter, everyone who might or might not read it, why don't we just do a quick recording? In here, I help you kind of script the flow. And just in just a few minutes, you can get this done instead of taking an hour to write that whole thing. Yeah. And I think that might have helped me get more leverage on that initiative.

Jay Wong: 

Yeah, it's, it's Look, I don't I'm at the point where I don't even see like podcasting. I get it, like from a Okay, searchable on iTunes, Spotify. You know, Joe Rogan, True Crime shows, right? Like, like podcasting. Like I'm just giving you like, when people think like I'm saying, podcasting, there's different thoughts. Look, for businesses, I go, it's borderline at the point where this is another marketing channel. And if done properly, it is certainly a trackable sales channel. Right. And, and look, it's I'm not saying it's for everyone, cuz I disagree with that, too. You know, where, you know, let's say you're talking about writing a book. Should everybody write a book? Right? And and some answers is like, Oh, yeah, everybody, you know, selfishly, even if you needed something. Look, I don't think everybody should write a book. Just I don't think everybody should have a podcast. Right? Like, I don't think it always makes sense. And it's not this like blanket answer. But look, if you like storytelling in this way, if you enjoy conversations like this, right, and if you don't mind being, you know, authentic and, and honest not to use those as like, marketing ploys, but like, that's just, you just can't help it. But to keep it raw and real. You know, that's what I actually love about your show, Steve, is that even when I hopped on here, I said, Hey, like, what's the format? How are we going to do this? And you're like, Jay, just think about it. Like we're, you know, having a beer together, he just two guys geeking out having a true genuine connection, right. And even if your listeners can't, like, make it out, they could probably sense that we're having a great time. We're both smiling over here. Because I know you agree with some of the things you might have some some of the things that add, you know, on top of it, I love the way that you're approaching this, right. So it's like there's and that's what podcasting is that's like the raw form, before iTunes before ROI before all marketers needed to make it something that's trackable, and marketing. Before all those things. podcasting was just that multiple people that enjoyed a topic that hey, we're just going to share this online. We don't we don't even know if anybody's gonna listen how I don't even know how to find it. Right. We're just gonna, it's called internet radio. Right. And we have an internet radio show, you know, and so that I think you got to have that, like that love of the game. You know what I mean? You got to have that like natural curiosity, to be able to make it work and to create a great show. Alton? Yeah,

Steve Brown: 

totally. What's one question that I didn't ask that you really wished? I would asked.

Jay Wong: 

That's a good question around podcasting around

Steve Brown: 

just about che, or podcasting or your expertise or where you're going, I don't know. You know, that's just like my one thing I like to just slide in there and see what pops out.

Jay Wong: 

Yeah, I mean, I mean, we did talk about this right. But I love to I always like to remind people of like, does hitting the top 100 matter? Yeah. Does it actually matter is are we driving? actual? What's the purpose behind it? All right. And internally, in our agency, full transparency, you know, we call it the end of phase one. Right? Because there are other phases that we're bringing other people to there are, you know, there's other ways of being it's kind of like this. We just helped build our clients and amazing home court advantage, and you won some awards, you're in the top 100. It's good. Everybody's high fiving each other? That's great. Right. But once again, the second part of the equation, which I think once again, is way more important, is what are we going to do of this now? Right? Can we book you on some away games? You know, could we repurpose some of that content into different forms of medium, right? Maybe taking an audio and making it a great different blog posts over there and submitting it to a completely new, you know, to, to Business Insider, or Fast Company? Right? Like, what if that opens up a new audience, the game becomes about amplifying what works, the game becomes about new traffic, right? And it becomes exactly what you're talking about, Hey, keep writing that email, right? Or maybe maybe you want to make that switch. And, and instead of writing that email, you're now making a short kind of broadcast on the podcast. But how can we now integrate said podcasts into the marketing so that your company has a voice so that you have a real voice behind your mission, your values, your manifesto is not just some link that you send people to, you know, or your values are not just something that you say, Hey, I know those right? Or, hey, they're in the back of the wall. You know, they're they're written up there. But your listeners and your customers end up buying into that.

Steve Brown: 

I think the best quote from me, from you today is when you have always said, you need to be the thought leader, you need to be the thought leader, but I loved how you said, you need to become the voice for your people. And I think that makes more sense immediately. that conveys so much more about the importance and what's at stake. Just a great way to package that. I like that.

Jay Wong: 

I appreciate that. It shows shows that you're you're listening and see one thing that you did right there, right. Now, you know, not to get into it. We have a there's a lot of tactics, obviously. Right. But even in just saying that, right? Like, the chances of me sharing this interview now are like, probably 50 60% higher, not to not to say that I wasn't planning on sharing it to begin with, right? But let's just say that I'm significantly more famous, or you're interviewing someone that gets interviewed all the freakin time, right? They're doing a book launch. It's like, 200 podcasts that they're on, because their PR person, you know, thought it'd be a great medium to try out. Right? How do you stand out from those 200 interviews, you know, you as a host, right? And how do you create that genuine connection with someone? Right? And that not to say that you use that as a tactic or strategy, but just sharing with them off record on record, right? Hey, I really love that story right there. I really love that quote right there. Right? immediately it shifts it and goes, Hey, you know, this person's paying attention. Right? And you know what, I like that, too. You know, I should we should clip that out. And we should share this. Right? So it's there's a media buy it right, right around there. And, you know, it's sometimes when you're doing interviews, and that's a big part of your podcast, and that's a big part of the content strategy. there's not as much time for the business owner to talk about their thing. There's not as much time for you to perceive the shared that you know, Steve's five, you know, method to be able to create ROI, right, though I'm sure it's amazing, right. That's just it just feels a little offer if you're going to do that every single area exit out. But if you could get your guests to be able to share right about the interview. It brings in K Jae Hwan doesn't matter, right? Let's just say my audiences for ease of math 1000 people, well, maybe at that, you know, maybe out of those thousand people if they're into our listening to ROI for me, hey chances They might be listening for ROI from you. Right? So that's, that's, that's, that's another little, you know, mini little growth strategy right there. That I love that you shared that.

Steve Brown: 

Cool. So um, if people are listening, that like the jacked up about you and your energy, where do they find you? Or first just tell us what's the best fit for you? And how they should contact you?

Jay Wong: 

I appreciate you asking that. See, that's a question that very rarely that people ask what's the best fit for you. So look, we work with people, business owners that have signature programs, or certification programs, or a program that they're looking to track growth over multiple years. Because if you're tracking retention, we know that with our with our podcasts, your brand process that we can help, we guarantee by the way that we can increase retention by 15 to 20%. Now we understand not every business might have that built in, if you're a bit of a SAS or a digital, you know, platform, you might be tracking LTV, you might not call that retention, right? If any of your, you know, listeners or businesses that are listening to this qualify and you know, have signature programs, they're looking to grow, wanting to grow LTV, wanting to have a top 100 podcast and be able to make that into a sales channel for you, we have found those clients to be the easiest ones to be able to just completely knock it out of the ballpark for right. And, you know, it doesn't mean that if you don't have some of those things in place, if you're just a thought leader with maybe a book and you're figuring out your online course, we can still help you. Right, it's just that your path to ROI is going to be a little different, you know, so each show we do has that customized ROI path, which I'm sure you appreciate, right? Because you know, every business is just a little bit different, you know, what we were able to do with Procter and Gamble their alumni network, right, they're looking to drive new members into their alumni network, right? It's not that different, you know, it's a bigger name, it's they've, you know, that, you know, see, they were having CEOs, you know, previous CEO of eBay, CEO of HP, CFO, Clorox, like, it's a, it's a different level, right of like a corporate type of interview, but let's just say your listeners have a membership that they want to be able to create higher retention for, right that they might want to be able to offer a higher end service or mastermind next year, this might be a really good time for you to become that voice for your customers and for your niche. So yeah, Hope that answers kind of like who we really ideally work best for. And the two spots to really, you know, find out more or, you know, kind of stalk us on the internet, however, you want to be able to do that, you know, podcasts, your brand.co, that's the super basic one, you can see some of our kind of case studies and different, you know, clients that we've worked with over there, and some of the results they've hit. But one of the ones that we pretty much hit on a lot is our entire process in terms of how we help clients get their, what we call their top 100 buyers, right? So how do we get your customers to buy more and more and more. So if you're interested in seeing our entire process, we actually give it away completely for free. It's a done for you podcast.co. And I'm sure you guys will will link it wherever you know the show notes are but those are the three spots.

Steve Brown: 

in the show notes below. Yes, yeah. And you've mentioned a book a couple of times, what's the name of this book? What's when's it gonna splash? Is that is that still in process?

Jay Wong: 

So I didn't mention a book but the rebrand our of our podcast is coming, we're going to be actually launching two different ones. One is a rebrand or it's an iteration of the interchange maker. Steve, I just love right, like the medium itself has given me so much that it'd be kind of silly to not, you know, be able to do it justice. But we're also going to be launching one specific to our, what we do in the agency, and some of the thoughts and even conversations like this, right? How business owners could really capitalize not just on podcasting, but new media, right, how can they they can leverage this to be able to get their message and more, you know, more sales more customers out there. Alright, so that's coming the end of this year and beginning next year.

Steve Brown: 

I really enjoyed this. This is fun for me. You're a great guest. And I'm just grateful that you were on the ROI online podcast, Jay.

Jay Wong: 

Well, I appreciate the invite, and this was really great. Appreciate it.

Steve Brown: 

Alright, that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me online. LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better, be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet at surprise, that golden toilet.com. I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast.