[Feature Friday] Author Laura Kriska on Preventing an Us vs Them Clash The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 72

Laura Kriska: 0:04

If you're going to engage in the work of building trust with other people who have grown up differently than you have, however that is, you have to be prepared for some difficulty. It's not going to be smooth. And I think this is why, especially if we're talking about race in America, this is why there has been negligible progress, even though over 50 years have passed since the civil rights legislation. Because when I grew up anyway, the message was, be colorblind, don't acknowledge race, don't talk about it. And I grew up thinking that was the right approach. And that's not the right approach. Because for most people of color, their race and their ethnicity is an important fact about their identity.

Steve Brown: 0:58

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the ROI Online Podcast where we believe you, the courageous entrepreneurs of our day, are the invisible heroes of our economy. You not only improve our world with your ideas, your grit and your passion, but you make our world better. I'm Steve Brown. And this is a place where we have great conversations with winners just like you while we laugh and learn together. Laura Kriska. Welcome to the ROI Online Podcast.

Laura Kriska: 1:34

Thank you, Steve. Glad to be here.

Steve Brown: 1:36

So I'm excited to have you because you have this book, and it's called The Business of We, the proven three step process for closing the gap between us and them in your workplace. And from my experiences, I've actually, I've had this happen. And I think it's probably more prevalent in a lot of workplaces than we would like to admit.

Laura Kriska: 2:05

I think every workplace has occupational us versus them, you know, sales versus marketing, audit versus everyone. There are occupational mandates where we do need to have different goals that seem to maybe work against each other. But ultimately, in an organization, we have to work together.

Steve Brown: 2:29

So let's build a little authority here for you, you have this really cool story that starts in Japan.

Laura Kriska: 2:39

Mm hmm. So I was actually born in Japan, my parents were missionaries there. And I was two years old when we returned to United States. So I don't have any memories of that time. But I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. And my parents had a wonderful experience in Japan. So I grew up with this affection for Japan and this curiosity and in college, I got to spend my junior year abroad, which was an amazing experience. I learned to speak Japanese. I was on the university judo team. I did all these things that I had never done before. So after that year, I really wanted to return to Japan to find a job. I thought I might become an English teacher. As my parents had been, they were, you know, missionaries who taught English. And I was very lucky, because in Ohio, Honda Motor Company had set up a factory and continues to employ 1000s and 1000s of people in Ohio, making motorcycles and cars and engines. And because of people I knew I was introduced to Honda, and they hired me. And I was sent to the Tokyo headquarters of Honda Motor Company, I was 22 completely clueless, but also kind of totally full of myself. I don't know if you remember your own experience at 22. But I was really excited about that opportunity.

Steve Brown: 4:08

So you found yourself as the only Gaijin working for Honda. No?

Laura Kriska: 4:16

I was one, there were a handful of other non Japanese people, but I was the only American woman. And there were 1000s of Japanese professionals working in the Tokyo headquarters. And it was a great experience in many ways. It's actually the topic of my first book, which I published years ago called The Accidental Office Lady. And it's about kind of what I did well, what I didn't do well, but it was my first experience feeling like a them, an outsider on a daily basis. And that early experience influenced the book I just wrote.

Steve Brown: 4:58

So I've had a little exposure to Japan. And so when I was learning that, you know, to think about you, as a woman, a young woman, the only one working there, I think our audience needs to understand what a big deal that is, how different that culture is how they look at things, all the little unspoken rules that you had to learn.

Laura Kriska: 5:27

I think you just hit on a key phrase, the little unspoken rules. Every cultural group has little unspoken rules. And when you are unfamiliar with those little unspoken rules, it's easy to make mistakes. It's easy to offend people. This is where a lot of the unintentional harm occurs, because most people are interested in getting along and you know, not having conflict. But because we haven't been exposed to the other culture, or we haven't done the work to learn about the other culture that is relevant to our lives. We cause damage without intending to.

Steve Brown: 6:12

Yeah, it puts people in an awkward position because they don't know if they should correct you to teach you at that time. And so there's this dilemma that when you, and most Americans might know, that when you put your chopsticks in the rice when you just that's like offensive and is like it you put the folks that do you understand that rule in a dilemma. Do I correct them and teach them? Or do we just ignore it and go on?

Laura Kriska: 6:37

And in my book, I talk about three categories of harm or damage, and there's inconsequential, consequential and game changing. So putting your chopsticks weirdly, in the rice probably fits into the inconsequential category. So you know, some people might mind it, but most people are going to shrug it off. But a consequential example, might be saying a Japanese person's name, but not using Son after their name, which is customary and respectful. So if somebody's name is Mr. Tanaka in Japan, you would say Tanaka Son, but to say, Tanaka, Hey, Tanaka, can you help me Hey, Tanaka, where's the stapler? Using just the name Tanaka is extremely rude in Japanese culture. And so that would fit into the consequential category where someone might speak up or without knowing it, you might be causing quite a bit of tension and damage. And then game changing would be behavior. Again, it could be unintentional, where you are ruining a relationship. So an example would be in Japan, not being aware of and acknowledging the hierarchy. Hierarchy matters almost all the time in a Japanese business environment, and in a way that it just doesn't in the United States. So for example, in Japan, people tend to sit in certain seats, or they speak in certain ways. And so if you kind of roll into this meeting, unaware, speaking over people looking at them as though none of them have a certain authority, because of their years of service. You could be ruining relationships. And in fact, I did that, Steve, that happened to me when I was an office lady working for Honda.

Steve Brown: 8:57

Now, there's, you know, as an American that, well, we all know the term ugly American. But you can be a bull in a china closet in many cultures and not realize it because it's just how you think, we have such an informal society, such a, everyone's on the same level mentality, but when you go to Japan is very different. It takes a long time, assuming that you have the intent to respect and a go by these rules respectfully, they can take you a long time to learn them all.

Laura Kriska: 9:35

And at least being aware that these unspoken rules exist is a step in the right direction. And in fact, in The Business of We I talk about basically a three step process, and the first step is fostering gap awareness. And you described what that means. It means being aware that there are cultural norms surrounding us all the time and everywhere we go. But a lot of times, most of us are unaware of those norms, especially if you grew up in the cultural majority in a particular community, because when you're in the majority, most of the other people around you are behaving in the same type of way. So it doesn't occur to you that there might be other ways of behaving, or speaking, or building relationships or giving people bad news. And so when you get on a plane and go to a foreign place, that's when it's most obvious to many people for the first time. Because they're really moving outside of what is familiar, and they see behavior that's just so drastically different than they are accustomed to.

Steve Brown: 10:57

So let's talk about at least the culture that we're trying to establish in our businesses. Diversity is like, a real important word to know and implement in your organization's or at least that's the cultural expectation of a lot of businesses, is that show us that you are diverse in that you are operating in a way that's respectful of that, but it can come back to bite you in some ways. No?

Laura Kriska: 11:36

What do you mean by come back to bite you?

Steve Brown: 11:38

Well, I think that if you're doing it in a way that maybe you're stepping on the toes or these unknown rules, you could have the right intent, or maybe be sloppy at it and actually be upsetting the things that in the opposite way of what you're wanting to establish.

Laura Kriska: 12:03

I would say that there is this false notion that proximity to people who are different is enough, that if you hire people, for example, who don't look like you, or sounds like you or pray like you, that you've done enough, it's a good thing to have a diverse work place, it's good for business, it's the right thing to do. But when people are just looking for somebody who is different, but not really wanting to include them in the decision making, in the heart of the organization, it can cause more problems. It's kind of cosmetic diversity. I heard this phrase recently, cosmetic diversity versus substantive diversity. So I really like that idea of substantive diversity. And in the book, I talk about this idea of looking inside yourself to understand and reflect on what type of life choices you've made. Because so many of us are in favor of diversity, we want to be inclusive yet. If we look at our own lives, we live pretty segregated lives. I see this, so I'm a white, middle aged woman. And many of the relationships where I live, you know, how I spend my time is with other middle aged white people. And there's nothing necessarily inherently wrong with spending time with people like you. People do that all over. But if you're really trying to embrace diversity, you need to question that and say, Well, why is that? You know, why? Why do I have lunch every day only with people who look like me, sound like me, and pray like me? And most often, it's because we don't put ourselves in situations where we can be with people who are different. Or if there are people nearby, we hesitate for one reason or another. And this is a problem. So right now, for example, after last spring and Black Lives Matter protests, which fundamentally has changed the messaging in Corporate America, right? We see so much more messaging, in support of Black Lives Matter, which is very important. It's great. But hashtags are not even close to being enough. We need organizations and especially the leaders in those organizations to take action, to make policies to do the hiring and mentoring and integration of people who are outside the cultural majority, which in most companies is white americans. So people in charge of those initiatives in Corporate America are majority, middle aged white people just like me. And so if those people, myself included, if they haven't done the work to think about their own choices, and themselves, I don't believe they can make effective policies and help their organizations culture. So one of the concepts in my book is I use the phrase, internal infrastructure. And so this came from my observation of the civil rights legislation, comparing it to the Americans with Disabilities Act. That was I think, in 1991. And I'm sure as you remember, when this act was made into law, companies, organizations spent huge amounts of money building an infrastructure to include people with various types of disabilities. So closed captioning, physical ramps, parking, you know, places to park, you know, we see evidence of this anytime you go out in public. And so when the civil rights legislation became law in America, there were similar rules, you have to do this kind of, you know, there were things you had to comply with. But there's no visible evidence of this. You can't look at another person, and understand if they have done the internal work, to be able to connect to people who are different to integrate, to have relationships to build trust with people who are different. So The Business of We talks about the need for individuals, especially leaders, especially middle aged white leaders, to look at themselves, and ask yourself, Hmm, you know, have I done the work? There's, the second step in the book is self assessment. There are 10 questions that can change your viewpoint, it can change your culture. But these 10 questions, ask any person to measure themselves in relation to another cultural group, you get to choose whatever cultural group that is. And when your score is very low. On a specific culture, it means you need to do some work to increase your score. Because when you increase your your understanding, and your integration and your relationship and trust with people in a particular other group, you are much less likely to cause unintentional damage, you're going to learn those little invisible rules that you brought up. And not only are you going to avoid causing trouble and damage and heartache, and hurt feelings, you can then leverage your knowledge toward positive outcomes, such as a really strong trusting relationship with somebody who has a different life experience than you.

Steve Brown: 18:19

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Laura Kriska: 19:31

Yeah, it starts with a name. You know, when I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, there were a handful of kids who were named Laura. Laura was a pretty common name. Steve is another pretty common name. And so if I need somebody named Steve or Laura, you know, it's an easy name for me to say, it's an easy name to remember. I hear it once. I've got it. But in the 21st century, people are representing a much more diversity. So you have names reflecting different cultures, different ethnicities. And so again, if you're in the cultural majority, you might come across names that you thinking, I don't know how to say that. What kind of name is that? You know, though, you might, you know, I've even heard people make fun of other people's names. That is not a good idea. People in the majority, I refer to anybody who identifies with the cultural majority in a particular organization, I call that being on the home team. If you're on the home team, you have an advantage. So if you're somebody who is a native English speaker, for example, and someone, a non native English speakers in your organization or in your community, I feel like it's a great effort by the home team to make the effort to say the other person's name correctly. And so if you don't get it on the first try, you know, you say to them, Hey, I want to make sure I'm saying your name correctly. Could you repeat that? Or how do you spell that? Or, you know, it takes a little bit of effort. It's the kind of thing that maybe 25 years ago, didn't come up, because in your organization or in your community, or the kids in school with your own kids had similar names. So diversity is increasing in every organization in America, and we've got to keep up.

Steve Brown: 21:41

So where where does one not walk on eggshells, yet have us sincere intent? Yeah, how do we establish that where both sides are us and them where it's more of us, more we obvious that our intent is sincere?

Laura Kriska: 22:10

So how do we move forward without walking on eggshells? I think that's a really good question. I think part of it is acknowledging that you're on the home team. And being aware that you have certain advantages, because you're familiar with how things are and other people aren't. And also preparing yourself for the situations that you will make a mistake. You will, unintentionally, perhaps offend someone and be ready to apologize, be ready to acknowledge and say, Oh, I didn't mean that, or that wasn't my intention, you know, if you're going to engage in the work of building trust with other people who have grown up differently than you have, however that is, you have to be prepared for some difficulty. It's not going to be smooth, and I think this is why especially if we're talking about race in America, this is why there has been negligible progress, even though over 50 years have passed since the civil rights legislation. Because when I grew up anyway, the message was, be colorblind, don't acknowledge race, don't talk about it. And I grew up thinking that was the right approach, and that's not the right approach. Because for most people of color, their their race and their ethnicity is an important fact about their identity. So it's convenient for people who are in the majority, to say, Oh, I don't see color, I don't see race, because it protects us. It's a kind of shield that we've hidden behind. Because it's helped us avoid what could be hard conversations. And that's one thing I've learned as I've grown older, that I grew up with a false notion that proximity alone was enough that being colorblind or culture silent was the right approach. And it's not. I believe that to create a weak culture, people in the majority have to see others who don't fit into that majority and take action to widen the circle of belonging. And that starts with their names.

Steve Brown: 24:47

I think, you know, my experience in other cultures when I spent time there, obviously, I was young. I got to see things different than what I grew up thinking. I talk about my epiphany that, so I got invited to a Japanese family's house and they treated me this, this young guy with pimples and full of themselves, right. But they, they treated me so respectfully as a guest of honor. And I was sitting there, and this man was my father's age. And here's his wife, and he had two sons, just like my dad. And I think it hit me at that point that whatever they believe, whatever they see, is just as legitimate as my point of view, and that's when it really hit me that we believe in thinking act, because that's all we've been exposed to. Not that it's bad. But that's just what we've learned. And so it was really something that really helped me, at least, at least realize that there are other legitimate perspectives and viewpoints than what I, I grew up.

Laura Kriska: 26:14

Mm hmm. And I think like you, Steve, many people don't experience that, many people in the white majority in America, don't experience those moments of feeling like other, or feeling like them, as I was saying earlier, until they have that kind of international experience. But the reality is that when you are a person of color, growing up in the United States, many people feel like an other, they're treated like a them every single day. And like for you and me, we didn't, I didn't see that until I had a global experience that helped me.

Steve Brown: 27:00

I think that is something that can really help you relate with others, and understand their perspectives or just as legitimate, even though they may be different. So what are what are some good success stories, implementation from the insights from your book that you would like to share?

Laura Kriska: 27:26

Well, you know, many of the stories started with Japan and expanded. But I have seen, most of my work started working with Japanese professional men who were working outside of Japan. And many of them were living in London, or Houston, or New York, but they were living a Japanese life. Japanese language all day long, eating lunch only with other Japanese people, you know, having meetings with other Japanese staff, etc. And it was a kind of discomfort, it's kind of like what you're referring to earlier. And when those professional people could break out of those norms, and feel safe, and try to engage, they could find solutions to things that otherwise they couldn't have a kind of a general example, would be the companies that were selling products here in America, you know, Japan makes wonderful products. And sometimes those products are not well suited to, you know, American consumers. And when they had good relationships with their sales staff here in America, they could learn very quickly, you know, Oh, this product is not that great because of this issue or that issue. But when they, if they weren't having meetings together, they wouldn't learn about those problems. And so the tendency of the headquarters of the Japanese companies, and this is a tendency of headquarters in general, is that we know what's right. And so they would just keep producing the same product over and over without recognizing the needs that were slightly different in the local environment. So it was really gratifying when I would see Japanese professionals, building relationships with local staff. And that was not easy to do. And it usually happened with local American staff who, Oh, we're really outgoing, or kind of wouldn't let the Japanese colleague get away with eating lunch by themselves at their desk, you know, every day. So one of my favorite stories from the book is when I worked with an IndyCar race race team. Do you follow IndyCar? Steve?

Steve Brown: 30:03

No. I mean, I know what it is. It's like real fast cars, right?

Laura Kriska: 30:06

Real fast cars. So in 1993, I worked with Bobby Ray Hall. He himself was a IndyCar driver winner in the 1980s. And he had a team. And Honda had been very successful in Formula One Racing, and they wanted to try to get into IndyCar racing. So they made a one year agreement with Bobby Ray Hall. And the Japanese team came from Japan to work in Ohio for one year. And the arrangement was that Bobby Ray Hall had a team of American guys who worked on the car they were called, I affectionately referred to them as the gearheads. And these were a bunch of really loud, big men who loved racing and cars. And I was going to be kind of the go between eyes beat Japanese. And this project started in January, the Japanese team was arriving in February. So I persuaded Bobby Ray Hall to let me teach the gearheads a little Japanese. And so they were like, what? But what happened is that the gearheads introduced themselves in Japanese on the day that the Japanese engineers arrived. And it was, like groundbreaking moment where these two groups of men, you know, very us versus them, they didn't speak the same language, different race, different ethnicities grown up 1000s of miles away from each other. But this encounter provided this we moments, and that carried through in the work relationship that year, it contributed to their ability to solve problems. And then years later, as a result of many things, not just rebuilding, but we building was a part of that. Bobby Ray halls team won the Indy 500 with a Honda engine. And Bobby Rice was the driver that year. And then just this past year, in 2020, Takuma Sato won the Indy 500 racing for Bobby Ray Hall with a Honda engine. So the the outcomes are, the positive outcomes are limitless. When people work together, you know, you and I know cooperation is good. But when you cooperate across some type of difference, that's when you get really breathtaking results.

Steve Brown: 32:35

It's been my experience that when I spend a little time and get to know someone, actually the relationships that you establish, and these short times they seem to go deeper, faster, because I think there's an appreciation that there's a temporary aspect of their relationship that it may not be around forever. So I realized that the relationships I've built, you know, growing up, they take longer, you may stay at a superficial level for years. But in international based relationships, it seems like we get to talk about deeper things that are more us, faster. Would you agree?

Laura Kriska: 33:23

I'm not sure. Um, I have to give that some thought. What I would say is that it's such an interesting idea, that because you're working with somebody, maybe in a short situation, maybe you're just there for a short time.

Steve Brown: 33:47

It seems like or from my experience, the person, you're wanting to learn a little bit about their culture. So you're asking more about their personal background, and all of a sudden, that connection is deeper and more, more personal. And I've just, I really value those deeper conversations that maybe we wouldn't take the time to do with people of our own team, necessarily. I just, I think that we really do desire it to connect with people. But we let our insecurities or or maybe cultural tension that maybe been propagandized a little bit bother us and make us see past that we're two humans care about each other.

Laura Kriska: 34:45

Well, I've had a moment to think about what you said and I do think there is something to looking at an opportunity, like we've gone across the country or the world and we have this opportunity that we are are inspired to act in ways that make maybe make us more vulnerable, that we're willing to take a risk. And so yes, I do agree with you, Steve, that we might reach a deeper level of relationship with somebody, because we have that mindset. But I would say, that's exactly the mindset we need when we're working day to day in our regular lives, with people who are culturally different, not because of nationality, not because of a passport difference. But because they grew up differently here in the United States. That's where I think huge opportunity resides, again, especially with people who are part of the who identify with a cultural majority, that it is incumbent upon, sorry, it is incumbent upon us to look for those opportunities and to do the work to broaden the circle of our relationships, our experiences, and I don't mean just, Oh, let's know each other's names, right acquaintance level relationships. I mean, trusted colleague level relationships, resilient relationships, that can withstand the heavy lifting, that our culture needs to take us to a world where we can work side by side with people who are different, and have equity and inclusion. You know, that doesn't happen easily. It happens over time, with consistent effort by well meaning people who are genuine and honest and can really work together to build that, that's what I want. I want to inspire a we building revolution but I can't do that by myself. I want your help. I want the help of everyone. But again, I want mostly the help of people who are like me, middle aged white people who would like to see things have, you know, less conflict, more unity, cooperation, that kind of thing?

Steve Brown: 37:30

Yeah, it's that communication thing that's always plagued me. You know, I think a lot of people relates like, relationships are just hard period, you know, and communion, whether it's with your spouse, your parents, your whoever, and to have the sincere intent to work with someone in an environment that is safe, and positive and healthy, I think is something that we can all be on board with.

Laura Kriska: 38:09

And it actually makes me think of the third step in my book. So there's, you know, fostering awareness is the first step. A self assessment is the second step. And the third step is a gap closing action plan. It's the action. So I agree with what you just said, we want that. So how are we going to get it? We haven't achieved it yet. And I get again, I think it's because many of us have not taken actions, you know, because we're afraid to cause trouble. We don't want to offend anybody. And that is just not an acceptable path forward. Now, what is needed is action, and trying to create safe environments and say to someone, for example, you know, I'd like to know more about your cultural background. If you're comfortable sharing with me. I'd really like to learn from you. And then listen, learn. You don't have to agree with everything somebody else says. But if you don't understand it, we have no hope of finding common ground. And there's so many things that are common problems to all of us, that if we work together rather than fighting, we could be spending all of this energy and intellectual power towards solving problems like climate change, poverty, hunger, you know, those are the big problems. And then we have, you know, immediate problems in our own communities in our own organizations. I mean, can you imagine what things could be like in an organization, if we all got on the same team, and we're working in the same direction and we didn't let these perceived differences get in the way of that.

Steve Brown: 40:07

You've been listening to Laura Kriska. She's the author of The Business of We, proven three step process for closing the gap between us and them in your workplace. Laura, what's one question that you never get asked that you'd love to answer?

Laura Kriska: 40:28

One question that I never get asked? Maybe, What's something I can do? You know, I, you know, I, I think a lot of people hear me say, I want to create a rebuilding revolution and they think great. But then to think for themselves, Well, what should I do? What should I do today? And so what I would like to say is that all of us are capable of taking action. And that the first thing to do is to think of the them group that you want to narrow the gap with. And it could be anything, it could be related to a different language and culture, as we discussed, it could be a religious difference, race difference, gender orientation difference, you know, there, there is no end to the different cultural identities people have. So I encourage people to think about a them group that is relevant to them, that somehow is in their world, and that they want to make it you know, they want to narrow a difference. And then do something yourself today to learn more about that group. So if we reflect again, back on Black Lives Matter, and how many people really care about this want to support the movement, want to make our country in a more equitable and just place. They could do something very simple, like, read online, there is a great website, it used to be called 75 things white people can do to combat racism, I think the list has grown and grown. But anybody listening to us right now, could Google that. And look, the list I think is over 100. There's something on that list you can do today. It could be read a book, it could be read a blog, it could be go to a website called the route to read news. You know, there's so many small things that you could do by yourself, there's no risk, you don't have to be vulnerable. But you can start educating yourself. And then the next step can build on that where you might ask other people to read these resources and have a book group or have a conversation. Ultimately, you want to get to a place where you can have conversations with people who have the lived experience that you don't. And if you genuinely seek their counsel, I believe that you can find opportunities to build relationships, to get understanding that can transform yourself and the world.

Steve Brown: 43:35

I have these conversations with another author on a regular basis, but there's little phrases come out of that. It's interesting how just being human is a competitive advantage. And that actually sincerely caring about others is such a competitive advantage. Laura, you've been excellent guest, now let me let me try this in Japanese, okay? *Speaking Japanese*

Laura Kriska: 44:11

*Speaking Japanese* Thank you. Good job!

Steve Brown: 44:18

Oh, shucks. So what's a great place to reach out to you or, and connect with you?

Laura Kriska: 44:25

So I have a website, which is laurakiska.com. So it's my name dot com. I also have lots of social media. All under Laura Kriska

Steve Brown: 44:42

What a great name, Laura Kriska, K R I S K A. All right, Laura, thank you so much for being an awesome guest on the ROI Online Podcast.

Laura Kriska: 44:52

Thank you so much.

Steve Brown: 44:54

Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast. For more Be sure to check out the show notes of this episode And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better, be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden Toilet at surprise, thegoldentoilet.com. I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast.