[Feature Friday] Vinay Koshy on The Power and Importance of Creating Content - The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 46

Vinay Koshy: 0:05

The main challenge for for most of us is to keep our focus on people. With a plethora of information and advice being given about new platforms that come out like Tick tock, and so on and so forth, and what you can do on these platforms and things, it's very easy to think that you should start investing in those platforms. And quite forget the conversations that need to be had for a lot of businesses and marking directors that they want to associate metrics with every bit of conversation as to how a person has been moved from point A to point F in their particular sales funnel. But conversations. If they're done well and natural as you wouldn't a friend, they don't really need to have metric.

Steve Brown: 0:56

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the ROI online podcast where we believe you, the courageous entrepreneurs of our day, are the invisible key rows of our economy. You not only improve our world with your ideas, your grit and your passion, but you make our world better. I'm Steve Brown. And this is a place where we have great conversations with winners just like you while we laugh and learn together. Welcome back, everybody to the ROI online podcast. And today, I'm really proud to introduce you to Vinay Koshi. He's from sprout worth he comes from Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. And he's also the host of the predictable b2b success podcast. And Rene, welcome to the ROI online podcast.

Vinay Koshy: 1:54

Steve, thank you so much for having me.

Steve Brown: 1:56

So tell us a little bit about sprout

Vinay Koshy: 1:58

word. Sure. So I just got my staffing in nonprofits initially, before I transitioned into a for profit company, which was essentially a sass company, even though it wasn't all SAS at the time. And it kind of thrived. In that I was able to help a lot of clients develop rather nascent online marketing strategies. And and really enjoyed that. However, you very quickly reached a point where I wasn't able to grow very much. And I found myself in telecommunications and things of that nature, which wasn't a very pleasant experience, in that they had a very different sales psychology. And I left that after a bit and found myself working in a digital agency, from which I got laid off. Now, having seen the positives of doing sales, through building relationships, and being on the other end roads, all revenue focused and numbers faders, I figured there had to be a better way to do things. And if my thinking was correct, then I should put my money where my mouth is not look for another job and do my own thing. And why I started spread with, after a few failures, decided that content was an area that I could work in and develop. Started guest posting got a few clients made a bit of traction that way, but also found that over time, content was becoming something of a commodity. And why I started the podcast around a virtual summit and a few things in that space.

Steve Brown: 3:44

So to me, it's interesting, we started our agency I'm relating with you. And if you work with a client, but the hardest thing for the client to produce is content. And I realized that we need to really help facilitate their thinking through what would be the best content and helping pull it out of them in some way be in an interview or, or whatever that may be, and then helping write that content. And so I'm really relating that was the most important piece that we were bringing as far as a service to our clients. Were you recognizing the same thing?

Vinay Koshy: 4:23

Absolutely, I think, but kind of clarified over time in that I seem to resonate pretty well with people who are very mission focused or mission driven in that they want to solve a problem in the world, and also very much relationship oriented. And companies especially in the b2b space that deal with complex sales. This content and podcasting, for example, is a great way to build your audience and presence

Steve Brown: 4:59

silvernail I'm really interested in that, you know, podcasting has been around for a while. But when you go and look at the stats, as far as internationally where podcasts are popular, obviously, the states are the leading areas, maybe some in Europe, but I'm interested in, you're pretty much on the cutting edge, at least on the early trend line in Southeast Asia area where you are wrong.

Vinay Koshy: 5:29

I would say that is probably correct, I would say maybe Australia is a little bit ahead of the curve, Australia, New Zealand, in that we do have an audience that does listen to podcasts, or at the very least, has Spotify on my phone, but no one would have Spotify on their phone, and if they're not listening to podcasts are certainly listening to music. And it's just a short step away to listening to a podcast that they you know, wish to learn something from or tune into.

Steve Brown: 6:04

So tell us about the kind of clients that you're working with, obviously, they need to be a little progressive if if m strategy of producing content, you're getting them to adopt podcasting.

Vinay Koshy: 6:20

Yes, it can be a little bit of a stretch, there are a lot of companies that have bought into this whole idea of producing content and trying to be educational in some form or shape. The challenge, though, I think, for most companies is that there still is very much this idea that content should relate it to revenue. And I was just reading a post, I think, just a couple of days ago by Matt Schaefer who said, and I would agree with him that that is a wrong way of thinking about content, simply because if you look at most interactions, it takes months, sometimes years before, there is enough interest. And a lot of other factors that fall into place for someone to reach out and say, Hey, can we have a chat? Or I'm interested in what you're offering? And, you know, can we explore this? So thinking about content in short term metrics, is the service. And really the companies that do well, are those who invest wholeheartedly in helping people or teaching people and giving that which I say, without any reservation, and building that up over time.

Steve Brown: 7:50

It's a bit of a minds mindset shift for a business owner to perceive their self identity as someone that produces unique, valuable insights from their perspective about why they do what they do in their industry and how they help people and get past this, like, Well, my giving away my trade secrets, or, you know, there's all these good, sound good, like reasons why you wouldn't want to do that. And how do you how do you have that conversation where, where you go, Okay, this is how we would look at it as a legitimate business, nav asset, without expecting like immediate results.

Vinay Koshy: 8:35

You do need to treat it as a as an asset. Now, I think the other issue that people encounter is this idea of, I'm not a good writer, I don't have enough people to pull all this content production together. And certainly, if it's not going to drive the bottom line, why should I invest all this time and energy to into something like that? And I think podcasting in particular is a good way to bridge that gap to an extent. Because if you have the mindset that business is about people, and serving people, then podcasting is a great way to build relationships and serve them. So for example, Steve, I know you help people with their brand story and their websites and things of that nature. And there are a bunch of, of companies that do websites out there and you're competing with them. Now, suddenly, you build your authority and brand over time. But some of the simple things that we can do is like on a podcast, and talk about their challenges and problems and how they're found success to date. But also, this, this could be a podcast or it could be something like a webinar, where maybe you offer one quick fix that people could implement straightaway. And you get maybe five people onto a call, have a look at their websites beforehand. And maybe someone on your team reviews them gives them a quick spiel on what they think the website is about. And then, if I'm not mistaken, you've with the story brand theory. There are three questions you need to answer in about eight seconds. One of which is I think, what is this website about? What is it and how do I get it? Would I be correct in saying that?

Steve Brown: 10:33

Absolutely. It's the great test, yes,

Vinay Koshy: 10:36

run test. Exactly. So, you know, just going through that, and offering a solution to at least one of those three questions to a client is some something that they can take away and implement straightaway. Also, there is ability to start forming a network of friends, with five people on the call, where you can provide, you know, specific implementable advice to each person, you can talk to each other for about a half hour or so, apart from the teaching. And that's a value most people don't do that. And remember, when I was working with the SAS company, I used to do that, but it wasn't online, because we didn't have zoom calls and things at a time. But I would pull in five local businesses, provide some key advice, and then begin networking with with them by saying to someone who was building homes, that you should talk to this other person who runs a winery, because you kind of have the same kind of customers. So if you combine your databases, you're probably going to reach the right kind of audience and and build it build them up that way. So there are ways in which people can build relationships through podcasts, and outside of podcasts, but we just need to get a little bit a little bit creative. And support that bottom line through through those experiences, both in the short term as well as the long term.

Steve Brown: 12:06

So let's talk about some of your your success stories. And maybe someone that had struggled, trying to get their podcast off the ground, they did it for a little bit, but then lost the motivation or the enthusiasm for it.

Vinay Koshy: 12:22

Certainly. So for someone who may have ventured into a podcast or and then killed it off, or hasn't really thought about podcasting, and got back to why do you want to do content in the first place? And most don't exactly. And I would say today, if you don't have a good enough why, then there's probably this is probably not a good conversation to have. So unless we clarify the why there is no point in going any further. And if they believe that building relationships is key to to their sales process, and believe that audiences brand their authority, then it's probably a good conversation to have. Ultimately, podcasting is just a form of content. And so if you have a good wine place, you can then talk about building out a strategy, and then the mapping actions for it.

Steve Brown: 13:18

Well, let's talk about the wireless. That's the big thing that, you know, people see people posting on social media, they see blogs, and they they're seeing it work, and their customers are expecting some version of that of them. But they the Why hasn't really sunk in could have a conversation about the why, where the lightbulb can go off for because the people are listening. Yeah, it are. They're entrepreneurs, they're business owners, their marketing directors, their marketing directors, those poor people, they have to convince the leaders of the company to somehow dove into this. Let's coach a marketing director right now what how can you help them accomplish this?

Vinay Koshy: 14:08

So let's take for example, someone who runs cold call center software, right? And you've got a marketing director that this bit of software is obviously quite expensive talking 50 grand plus, probably willing to hundreds of thousands of dollars from just one client simply because of the number of seats and and the way you need to implement it. So for someone with that, you could look at content and go well, there's a lot of there's a bit of software out there and certainly websites that support it. But should we run Google ads? Should we run you know Facebook ads or LinkedIn? What do we do? And at some point, you're probably going to hit a bit of a plateau now, when you hit a bit of a plateau, you're looking for new ideas. And that's probably a good place to be. In that you can then look at what other strategies could be used. Now for the marketing VP or marketing director of a company getting into podcasting is a bit of an unknown. But the thing is, they only make sales, once they have a very well established relationship with, with the sales or call center manager in a particular company. And, and what better way to do it, then by inviting them on to podcast, not to talk about call centers, but about the challenges of running a call center, about people issues, management issues, etc. Great, but by virtue of getting to know each other, they're now aware of this bit of software, who is also a potential client, they can now be nurtured over time. Or they could jump into a conversation about I have this problem with my existing software, how do you solve it, and maybe your your software as a solution. So you could very easily go from zero to a few hundred thousands of dollars in revenue very quickly, even though your your podcast is designed for an extremely niche audience of a few hundred people.

Steve Brown: 16:26

Yeah, I love that. That's a great idea that that you would invite them on to talk about their, their industry, and help them discuss whatever challenges that they're having, but other people in their industry would relate. But you're being you've got this natural endearment process going on that you're facilitating this conversation that only they could have. Because you're doing the hustle. Exactly.

Vinay Koshy: 16:55

And you just been facilitating and helping them with through issues and highlight issues. And let's face it, no matter what business you're in, it's a people business. And technology is an enabler, people often forget that technology is an enabler. At the end of the day, you're dealing with people.

Steve Brown: 17:13

Yeah, so then the why becomes Well, why not? Why wouldn't you do that? Because your competitors, they're probably struggling with getting convinced over that, why. And then why they would take this direction, to produce this content that's not super centered, self centered, we're great. We gonna have great software, we have great features, when you could be flipping that and going, Hey, let's talk about what's going on in your industry and figure out some ways that, that we can do a little therapy session here. You know, most people don't buy till they really done their research, and they feel that you are a good option. Yeah. Then they want to reach out and talk about just the specifics of their situation. Yeah, so listening to a podcast several times, is a great way for them to learn about you learn about your personality. Learn about what you believe in what you don't. So, so what are what are some of them? Talk to me about like the best podcast from one of your clients. Do you have a really fun? success story?

Vinay Koshy: 18:33

Not not, per se. I mean, at the other day, I don't really monitor their their ROI other than through anecdotes at the center. I don't ask for for their metrics and things of that nature. But there are there are a bunch of great podcasts out there. each with their own unique spin. I myself don't really listen to anyone anymore. Particularly including my own, simply because I hate the sound of my own voice. But I do I do tune in to to listen to podcasts, for example, I was listening to Charlie home and you a couple of days ago. Yeah, just to get a sense of where it's at. And you have a great vibe and connection with your audience and suddenly drop elements of people's stories. So I think there are pluses to each person's podcast. It's just a matter of ensuring that you're resonating or delivering value to the audience in a way that you wish to connect with with certain types of people.

Steve Brown: 19:49

On a pilot pause here just for a moment and talk to you about a program that we have just released called the ROI quickstart Academy for authors. Every day I talk to business owners just like you who struggle with quickly getting their fundamentals in place. We want to create a great foundation, and we want to grow our business. But the things that are in our way, our lack of knowledge about the specifics, we should put in place, what kind of technology, what kind of messaging and what kind of campaigns, and that problem exists for authors as well. And we just chill so good with authors because, well, I'm an author, and I understand everything that you struggle with, you have a great idea, you have a great book, but what do you want to do, you want to get your book in front of more people, you want to make it easy for them to find you learn how they can schedule a time to talk with you hire you for a conference, or maybe sign up for the services that your book promotes. So what is the Quickstart Academy for authors? Imagine working with a small group of like minded authors, and the experts from the ROI quickstart team, it's a great way to get your messaging clear, to be confident with the technology in your marketing automation, and how to run a strategic campaign to get you more of what you want from the investment of your book. To learn more about the Quickstart Academy for authors, you can visit ROI online.com or click in the link in the show notes below. And now, back to this episode. I realized that some people kind of default think that they're going to be sitting by themselves and delivering some sort of lecture or thoughts, you know, just rolling with thoughts, and that can be quite intimidating. For me. It's easier to do. interview, absolutely, and help the other person shine. But I've noticed some people do just like a five minute tip super regularly. Which ones do you like?

Vinay Koshy: 22:01

Um, my, my default advice to most people, if they've never done this sort of thing before, would be to start with an interview style podcast, it's generally easier. I think the tips and the advice that's done on a solo manner, I don't necessarily relate with a lot of those personally. And that could just be my the way I'm wired or by my peculiar tastes. But I think it could work really well if you have built yourself up to a position of authority within your industry. And people are looking out for for your advice and content. So for example, in the marketing space, if Seth Godin were to do you know, one of those, I'd probably tune in just to just listen to him, given that I do monitor his blog fairly regularly. So I guess that's how I would suggest that. But if you're comfortable enough to provide valuable tips and advice, go for it.

Steve Brown: 23:07

Totally. So the in the years that you've been in business, you've been in business, eight years, is that correct? there abouts. Yeah, yeah. So how has your perspective of the application marketing and content creation changed?

Vinay Koshy: 23:28

I think, in the early 2000s, certainly a ble teams of the 20,000 years, say that content wasn't very well, wasn't a very well grasp idea. There was there's certainly been elements of it through the ages. But I think Joe believes he and the Content Marketing Institute have really bought content to the fore in a big way, and more and more companies are coming on board with that whole idea of using content and content marketing. But the problem, though, is, in a lot of cases, I'm not sure we're necessarily taking away from the noise that's out there. And so the challenges, not to add to the noise, but rather to actually help people and and, again, teaching, building relationships, I think will be the way to go in the future. Again, I think there was Matt Schaefer, though, was reading recently he was saying that SEO or search engine optimization probably will have limited value in the years to come. And that we need to be looking at other ways to to build our audience and and traffic. Not just through search engine optimization, because at the end of the day, there's only so many places on the first page of any search result. And that doesn't mean that you don't have anything valuable to say simply because you can't get it ranked. And therefore, we need to be take more of a people oriented approach, as opposed to search engines and optimize this and optimize that. Exactly.

Steve Brown: 25:24

That's the term that we use as a to human experience optimization. And this would be a version of that, you know, you think about wanting to rank on certain platforms. To do a podcast, there's a audio layer, that you're getting to expand and show up in searches. Yeah, to meet people on different areas, then if you've video like we're doing now, as well, then there's another video layer that you're producing, all with one, one effort, then we take some text. Now we have like in the American West, back in the day, when you shot a buffalo, it was offensive if you just skinned it and walked away. But then the natives, they would utilize that whole carcass. And that's the way I like to think about it there. We're making sure we're taking the whole carcass here. And we're going to divide it up music and all these different platforms that are applicable. Certainly,

Vinay Koshy: 26:29

certainly. And then it's a great way to to streamline your efforts, as well. Hmm.

Steve Brown: 26:36

Yeah, I think it's more interactive. It's more original, there's a personality. Who's the best interview, let's leave me out of out of your podcast. But if who have you really enjoyed interviewing

Vinay Koshy: 26:53

Steve Sims was great. And if you know Steve Sims, author of blue fish and the blue fish concierge company, he's a great character. It was the early on, when I started the podcast I interviewed. I forget his title now. But I think it was the third or fourth podcast that we released. He was the always the chief customer experience officer, I think his title is changed. But essentially, he this, he had this position in a company called legal vision, which is probably one of the fastest growing companies here in Australia, where they providing legal services online. And he was talking about how they have taken a very human centered design approach to the way they deliver legal services. And every element of it is noted, reviewed, to always be optimizing for that experience, through interviews, surveys, and a bunch of other metrics that they use an ongoing basis to the point where it's almost becoming a no brainer for people to keep coming back to them for their services. And that was a particularly I guess, new way, at least to me of thinking about human experiences and implementing them.

Steve Brown: 28:31

Totally, you can imagine people that are in some legal situation where their future is in is in jeopardy or in question and how nice they are that risk there is if I choose the wrong Do you call them solicitors and or lawyers? Or what do you call them

Vinay Koshy: 28:49

in lawyers? And barristers? Yeah, your barrister.

Steve Brown: 28:51

Yeah. So if you choose the wrong, wrong one, yeah, then, but how do you figure out which one's the right one, you know, and so there's a lot of risk there. But that sounds like it'd be a nice way to feel understood, to feel respected and that people are really wanting to know about where you are and what you need.

Vinay Koshy: 29:12

Exactly, especially in a profession that's traditionally being very much face to face and long and convoluted to a large extent.

Steve Brown: 29:22

So we met on spotty gas, what are some of the relationships from there? And do you do you like to recommend spot against

Vinay Koshy: 29:33

I think, place like spot, a guest, podcast guests, the pilot, I just saw the places that you'd go to ever really come to the fore more recently. And I think you and I have been a bit lucky enough to write that initial curve. It's a great place to find people who want to get out there. At least initially. Sorry, and that may be good place to start. But at the end of the day from for business, at least, I would very much say that, ultimately, you've got to be looking at who your ideal clients are. And make sure that at least the bulk of your guests, if you're doing interview style podcast, do match that ideal client profile, or segments, at the very least. So you could use a guest and all these other things as a bit of a backup, or to explore initially, if you like. But always keep your focus on on your client ideal client profiles.

Steve Brown: 30:40

So what kind of companies do you really gel with who you serve the best?

Vinay Koshy: 30:45

Yep. So two or three things that I'm looking for one, they need to be in the b2b space, they like to make sure that they are fairly mission driven, and focused, because that makes it easy for me to identify with their aims and goals, and come alongside them. And three, I think it works well, for the companies that have complex sales involved. It's not a matter of, Oh, it's got these features, as opposed to that, and I'll click here and purchase it now for about 10 bucks. Yeah, those are the I guess, the key key criteria that I'm looking for, at least initially. And if they're on board with the whole idea of using content and educating people, then I could certainly be of assistance to them.

Steve Brown: 31:35

So you, you put people in certain platforms, which ones are your favorite for pushing out content?

Vinay Koshy: 31:44

Again, I don't I'm a little careful with answering that question simply because people are looking for the best platform. And I say to people, it really depends on where your ideal clients exist. But might mean a particular Facebook group, it might be on a Twitter chat, it could be on LinkedIn, and no particular group. So you've really got to position yourself where they hang out. Now in the b2b space, LinkedIn is, of course, a platform of choice. But it would depend very much on on your ideal clients, and where you find that they, they hang out, it could be even on a private You know, one of those mighty network groups or a Discord server, you never know where you'll find them. So there's a bit of legwork to be done there. Yeah.

Steve Brown: 32:36

So what's the business environment like in Australia?

Vinay Koshy: 32:42

I'm a bit cautious at the moment. So given all that's happening in our world, so yeah, but that's understandable. But if you I think most people are keen to get back up and running and get things wrapped up. But they want to do so with an abundance of caution. In case, you know, things are reversed. So I would say for the most part, it's a lot of watch and wait and see kind of thing at the moment.

Steve Brown: 33:17

Would you say that was an aggressive business environments, a cautious one, by nature.

Vinay Koshy: 33:24

And Australia isn't as big a market as as America or Canada, for that matter. So we do have a smaller pond to plane to speak of. But having said that, I think most companies, if they certainly are making some subtraction, would be willing to invest in in growing their business and marketing strategies, as opposed to others who are still trying to find that sort of initial fit before before exploring such options.

Steve Brown: 34:01

So as what areas like do you see in the future as a potential growth area for agencies like yours? Or do you? And I'm assuming that that's where your primary market is? I'm sure you work with some American companies or Absolutely, yeah, Canadian companies. But what about Australia?

Vinay Koshy: 34:21

Um, I think the main challenge for for most of us is to keep our focus on people either, with a plethora of information and advice being given about new platforms that come out like Tick tock, and so on and so forth, and what you can do on these platforms and things. It's very easy to think that you should start investing in those platforms. And quite forget the conversations that need to be had for a lot of businesses and marketing directors that they want to associate metrics with every bit of conversation as to how a person has been moved from point A to point F in their particular sales funnel. But conversations, if they're done well and natural as you would with a friend, they don't really have the need to have a metric. It's just about inquiry about their well being or providing a bit of helpful advice as and when the time is right. And there aren't any real metrics that can show that we are moving into deeper relationships in this particular moment, as opposed to, you know, a yesterday or the day before. And that's a bit of a fallacy I think we sometimes have in our minds when we come into business, or look at sales and marketing. And so if you're just having conversations, and there is that a good cadence, I would, I would say that you probably doing the right thing. And being in the right place with with your potential customers, at some point in time, people will reach out to you. At times for the podcast, you don't really know who your listeners are, because they're just listening. At times, I don't necessarily reach out to you. But then out of the blue, something changes, and they reach out to you via email or on a social media platform. And that's when you realize that, oh, I've got this director or the CEO of a big company, you know, to me in and I had no idea. But it's in, I guess a bit of faith required in not trying to apply metrics to relationships, but just ensuring that there is a good cadence in consistency with your content, but the relationships that you do have, that there is a good cadence with your communication, and just being who you are.

Steve Brown: 36:56

Totally. So what are some of your favorite business books that you would recommend? Once that you've gotten a lot of value out that's helped you become a better business?

Vinay Koshy: 37:08

Story brand has certainly helped. I don't have the latest book, but the other one,

Steve Brown: 37:13

Mark Hyman Made Simple.

Vinay Koshy: 37:15

That's the latest one, I have the old one. Somewhere,

Steve Brown: 37:19

Building a StoryBrand.

Vinay Koshy: 37:20

That's right, and Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller. So that's that's helped a lot. Even though it's been a while, the four hour week, was certainly something that got me thinking in terms of the amount of time and energy I put into things. And why I would put into things, why I would put the terminal type of energy and focus into things. I mean, working in large corporate organizations, I would see people working weekends, late into the night, then, in some ways, that was almost a kind of expectation. But really, I in thinking about it then and reflecting on the book, I felt that the only reason that I was working was to be able to get a job, pay for a few things. But ultimately, my aim was to spend time with my family. And if that was important, then I'm probably better off spending time with my family as opposed to working long hours and weekends and things of that nature. So I guess it helped me bring what's important into into focus to a point.

Steve Brown: 38:38

So what's one question that you wished I would ask that I didn't ask you?

Vinay Koshy: 38:47

That's a good question. I don't think there's anything as such, but I would say, yeah, this whole idea of most most people go into business to make money. That's fair enough. But what another question that people should ask, or I would argue that they should ask is, what sort of impact do you want to make as a result of your business? And if you can answer that, then there is longevity to your business and business purpose. And I think that's something that probably most people don't, don't get asked often enough. And certainly don't use as a means to factor their strategies and, and business growth by

Steve Brown: 39:40

Yeah, I think that sometimes it takes a little bit to get your business off the ground. You know, you're in that survival part of the pyramid, right. You just want to eat the next day and but there's a point where you start to go cam, we're getting some momentum here. And then you're able to Take those energies and start to think about, well, let's back up and see why I really started this thing. It's legit. So let's narrow in on that reasoning and make sure it connects to everything that we're doing. But a better great guest. I appreciate your time. And, again, tell us the areas that folks can connect with you.

Vinay Koshy: 40:25

Sure. So you can certainly go to sprint with.com, that's SPR o u t with.com. And just hit the contact form if you wish to get in touch with me. Otherwise, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me and connect with me.

Steve Brown: 40:46

And then your podcast, the Predictable B2B Success Podcast. So you put an episode out every week.

Vinay Koshy: 40:55

That's right every week, it might go to twice a week, but we're not quite there yet. But you can certainly find that on iTunes, on the website, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts.

Steve Brown: 41:09

All right, Vinay, thank you so much for being on the ROI online podcast.

Vinay Koshy: 41:14

Thank you was a pleasure.

Steve Brown: 41:15

All right. That's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI online podcast. For more, be sure to check out the show notes of this episode. And feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better. Be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden toilet at surprise, that golden toilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI online podcast.