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Entrepreneur John Philpin on Why People Should Come First: The ROI Online Podcast Ep. 76

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Were you one of the companies metaphorically slapped in the face by 2020?

In this episode of the ROI Online Podcast, entrepreneur John Philpin talks about unlocking human potential and how embracing the future of work can benefit your business and prepare you for unexpected situations.

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John is a marketing consultant, entrepreneur, and author. He’s the founder of People First, where they help organizations struggling to deliver on their mission. They believe by unlocking human potential you can accomplish greater things.

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Every organization is made up of people; they’re the ones who make it work. When your people are happy the whole corporation works better. Find out what a difference it really makes for your business to prioritize the humans that work in it.

Among other things, John and Steve discussed:

  • How People First started
  • The fact that we’re all users, leads, consumers, or customers 
  • What John’s new book is all about
  • How to face this world’s inevitable changes come out on top by putting people first
  • John’s different platforms and how can he help your business thrive
  • Humanizing the way we work and grow the value of our business
  • The future of work 


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You can learn more about John here:

Follow John on LinkedIn 

You can learn more about People First here:

https://peoplefirst.vision/
Follow them on LinkedIn

Read the books mentioned in this podcast:

The Golden Toilet by Steve Brown


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Topics: Marketing, Podcasts

John Philpin: 

Customer First is been my focus, that we need to give people a reason as to why they should give a damn about this stuff that you're producing they're going to part with money. So it's naturally in me and I guess the dawning on me sort of came to play maybe six, seven years ago now, as I started thinking about this idea of I've always hated the expression being a user, customers and client, what's the difference between a customer and a client? I just kept on thinking it was something jelly in me, I just said, we're all goddamn people. Why are we, we categorize it because we need to subdivide and create markets, etc, etc. So just treat people intelligently as people.

Steve Brown: 

Hi, everybody. Welcome to the ROI Online Podcast where we believe you, the courageous entrepreneurs of our day, are the invisible heroes of our economy. You not only improve our world with your ideas, your grit and your passion, but you make our world better. I'm Steve Brown and this is a place where we have great conversations with winners just like you while we laugh and learn together. John Philpin, welcome to the ROI Online Podcast.

John Philpin: 

Steve, thanks very much for the invite, very much looking forward to this conversation.

Steve Brown: 

So John, you're doing this radical thing, everyone that's listening to this podcast are wondering why I need to lean into this conversation and hang around a bit. And so you're doing something really radical and it's called people first. Like, what got into you man? Why people first?

John Philpin: 

I don't know, there's just something that's been sitting badly with me for many, many years. I'm from the corporate world, and I've made my living in there. And I just increasingly find myself sitting in a world that seems to be corporate first. And you know, people can pick up the pieces behind that. So I'm very much into the idea of people first and natural fact when you put people first, the corporation ends up being a whole lot better, curiously enough. We talk about people so it's about making businesses work better.

Steve Brown: 

That's crazy thinking, man. No, I love it because, you know, I've been a part of cultures that weren't people first. That made you feel like, yeah, like, you're there, like a horse that needs to be rode 'till you need to be putting them out to pasture and let's get someone else in here. And it's like, not real motivational.

John Philpin: 

That's absolutely right. And it just goes deeper and deeper into all kinds of things. I mean, just just picking up on very, very recently, right, the Reddit attack, if you will, on the hedge funds. All they've done is come together and said, We don't agree with what you're doing when I push the stock the other way. And guess what? Everybody's so upset about the corporation's losing billions. Nobody ever thinks about the people when that happens the other way. So, you know, it's on, it's always there, it's apparent in front of our eyes but we don't necessarily think of it in the terms of well, if you thought about people first, this might not be happening.

Steve Brown: 

It's a theme that I've been preaching as well as that, you know, marketing is broken, because the marketing message is designed for what I call the Dillards Mannequin, that faceless, nameless thing that you just you can hang boys clothes on, or girls clothes on. But the one common thing is, it's got a credit card. So let's design our messaging to that faceless thing that has no name instead of humans that have dreams and hopes. And I believe the pendulum is swinging back from this industrialized, just minions, just use the minions and throw them out the door to now it's like, we're not gonna take it anymore. I have a name.

John Philpin: 

I absolutely agree with you. It's like, we're not customers, we're not consumers, we're not employees, we're not users, we're all people and by the way, with people on both sides of the equation, we contribute into the value of a corporation. And with that money, we buy things from that Corporation and indeed, other corporations. Businesses are nothing without people.

Steve Brown: 

So you have a book coming out. And I'm gonna let you say the title because I'm gonna mess it up. But I've got an alternate title for it. Like, go ahead.

John Philpin: 

Okay let's go for it. We could do that. It's called, For business leaders, slapped in the face by a world they thought they knew.

Steve Brown: 

Yeah. So mine would be like, what do you do after you get that big bitch slap from the world like that. I turned around, and wham, where did that come from? But what's going on? Why is the world we thought we knew different than we think?

John Philpin: 

So the book, I mean, I've had many books in my head for many years. And this is the first of a series of books that will be coming out and it's been accelerated for just with the odd time we're living in. It's nothing to do with the COVID issue. But it's definitely to do with how businesses have reacted to what's going on around them. So COVID is a side thing as far as I'm concerned. But the fact is that businesses say, expect the unexpected. Did the unexpected happen, and were we so unprepared, it's extraordinary. So the book doesn't offer a solution for you, because everybody's different, I can't give you a template saying if you do these things, but the book really is about making sure that the next time this sort of change slaps you in the face, that you can be ready for it, you can define the world on your terms, and not have to react to what's going on around you. That's what the books about. And it really is, I see it more of as a workbook or journal, if you will, to help you start asking yourself questions because what the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker need to do with their business is going to be a little bit different to what a business dealing with the services industry, or the call center or the banking industry. But they've all got the same problem that they've just been slapped in the face by a world hey thought they knew. It's bout change, change is always ccurring, it's going to get aster. So let's do something bout it on our terms on eople's terms.

Steve Brown: 

You know, and the makings of a really good story. That's, you have this hero that realizes that the status quo is changed. And they struggle with accepting it both externally and internally. And what makes it great action or great story is to see the internal struggle of not feeling confident enough to actually make it through and doubting whether they have what it takes. And I think that what has happened in the past year or two has really, really slapped everyone in the face and made us realize that whether we like it or not the status quo has changed. It's really revealed all the areas that weren't prepared. But in my case, I'm telling you, the people in my organization, they were the ones that really made it worthwhile to stay persistent and stay focused in the march through the fire.

John Philpin: 

Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt when the conversations we've had in the past, I've always enjoyed talking to you because you come from a very human perspective, I can only imagine the people in your business, but also what I call the stakeholders that surround you that sort of basically allow you to have the success you do, that comes from a human perspective, that they're not doing it to make Steve Brown a multimillionaire. It might happen as a side thing, but they're doing it because you all have a good relationship. You're working together. And it's extraordinary what happens when you do that.

Steve Brown: 

Yeah. If there was one thing that, I told you this last year is I didn't feel like I was succeeding, I didn't feel like I was winning. But then when I sat down toward the end of the year and did an audit, it's like, wow, we have accomplished a lot of great things. And it's because they circled up the wagons and really dug in and we pulled off some really cool stuff. Even though it didn't feel like it.

John Philpin: 

Yeah, it's interesting. I can't remember the exact quote, name, but I'll dig it out for you. But it is something like the idea that change never happens until it happens all at once. Right? And the fact is, you forget when you're going through the year of work, you go, Oh my God, oh, my God, and you go back and look back. It's like the, if you think about years as one level, but also months, also weeks, also days, and just start measuring at those levels. It's amazing, actually one of the chapters in the book is exactly about this. Don't be thinking, don't think of life as checklists and tasks, think about your strategic plan and actually check in with yourself on a regular basis because you'll be amazed what's going on. And sometimes you sit back and think nothing's moved. I've lost that deal, or that conversation didn't go well or I've had to, in fact, just today that this is one of three conversations I'm doing through Zoom today and the other two, basically one Cancel to accept to postpone till February the other one postponed to later on in January and you know, so I suddenly got free time. Some people were thinking Oh my god, you know, people don't love me. I think no, now I've got time to go and do there's other things I want to do. There's always an upside. And don't feel so just check in and think, okay, it's all a steady process. It's like the overnight success of that singer, you know, because he'd been working or she'd been working for 10-15 years without anybody knowing about them. And then suddenly, they were discovered overnight successes, there are amazing things.

Steve Brown: 

Amazing things, yeah. Lots of backstory to that overnight success. So at peoplefirst.vision, what are some of the resources that you offer that would help people start to embrace or feel a little bit better about approaching? Yeah, this change that we're having, too?

John Philpin: 

Yeah, so at core, I'm a sales and marketing dude, that's where I've lived my life, in the software industry very specifically. And a long, long time ago, long before I was born, even. There's a guy that had this idea of breaking the marketing story down into garnering attention and interest, creating desire, moving to actions called the ad model. And there are many versions around this. And what I've been doing over the past couple of years is really at that first part, the attention. So when you go to the, I have a range of sites, peoplefirst.london, the vision site is my blog, it used to live in a different world, I've recently moved across that, it's the blog, and very soon we'll have a certain amount of information about what's going on there. But I also have a newsletter that goes out on a weekly basis, that's called peoplefirst.news, I have my book coming out will be peoplefirst.pub, I have a podcast, which is peoplefirst.fm. And all of this is that garnering attention and getting interest is it's being a little bit provocative. And all I write and do you know, add another thing? What about this? And have you thought about that? Raising questions and building commentary. In the past six months, I then start to think, Okay, so that's great, you're in broadcast mode, how do you now start, you know, building a community around you? And for that, I've built a network, guess what it's called, it's called peoplefirst.network. And if peoplefirst.network, you'll find the start of a community that I'm beginning to build, where people who can see what I'm writing, and indeed, I'm not the only person there are many people in my space, writing about this kind of stuff at all have different opinions that are beginning to congregate in different spaces and peoplefirst.network is it purely a space for anybody to come in, or listen to the words of wisdom, some very interesting people that are building software solutions, that are building their own communities, offering courses, whatever it might be, within that space, as well. I will be offering courses at the moment, it's not there, it's all completely free to join. It's simply trying to build engagement and find out what's interesting to other people, because at the end of the day, if this ends up as being the John Show, it's not gonna work. This is about bringing everybody together, even to the point that one of the site domains I have is called peoplefirst.community, which once this takes off properly, I will then be using the community site to link out to all my friends running other businesses in this space. So if you read a guy called Doug Rushkoff, who has something called Teen Human, Professor out of NYU, he will be on that community list. And Digi Me, which is an application a piece of software coming into the UK will be on that space. So the community world is the extended everything right? So I'm not trying to be Oh, guess what, I've just had this great idea. Tons of people are working on this, what I want to do, my observation is that this is going on inside the bubble almost. And the people were that it can really help aren't that aware of it, because you don't read about this in mainstream news. You hear something like the future of work. You hear people talk about it, and it's in such abstract crazy ways that they talk about it, that you think well, this is ridiculous. Yeah, stop being a coal miner and start coding. Really? That is not a solution. Right? And we train people, we don't educate, and we train people to be a cog inside a corporate machine. And now the corporate machines are going automated and people are unemployed. We say well go be an entrepreneur. How?! When do we ever train people to do that? So that's my conversation. It's about understanding that when you talk about working from home because you're a knowledge worker on this, that's great for knowledge workers, that's how I make a living. But it's not great for a lot of people have to go to a factory or create some hair or drive a tech, whatever it might be all these things. People are being affected by what goes on around them. That's the space I'm creating now.

Steve Brown: 

We're listening to John Philpin, he's the author of For Business Leaders slapped in the face by a world they felt they knew, People First is his organization and we're talking about the humanization of the way we work, the way we treat people, the way that we grow the value of our businesses. So John, where did you get this inspiration even really started beating the drums on this topic?

John Philpin: 

Well, I mean, I've always been in the industry that I come out of the software industry. As I said, I'm a marketing guy, and I'm known for the guy that puts his hands up and go, Wait, wait, wait, wait, it's all very well, you saying that but what about the customer? Why do they give a damn? Right? So in my business world, Customer First is been my focus, that we need to give people a reason as to why they should give a damn about this stuff that you're producing they're going to part with money. So it's naturally in me. And I guess the dawning on me sort of came to play maybe six, seven years ago now, as I started thinking about this idea of, you know I've always hated the expression being a user, and customers, and clients, and what's the difference between a customer and a client? I just kept on thinking it was something jelly in me, I just said, we're all goddamn people. Why are we, we categorize it because we need to subdivide and create markets of why etc, etc. So just treat people intelligently as people. So having gotten that position, I was happened to be working in a software business at the time so I started getting involved with different organizations. And when I left that organization, I thought, I'm just gonna turn this into something, I'm not gonna join something else. Let's take this out, I started doing that about four years ago that's how old the original blog was, newsletters about two and a half years old now. So it's been a slow, steady progress. Again, I'm not known for what I do. I'm known for a whole pile of other stuff. So plenty of people call and say, John, could you dot dot, dot? And so as I've been making this transition, we still have to make a living. So we make that living. But trying to move now into this space and bring everything that I've learned, because you don't learn bad things in the corporation, you learn very good things, you must do. So all I'm saying is, that's great, how do you now apply all that learning you had in the corporation to you? How do you bring what Citibank does with his hundreds of marketeers to a baker? How'd you do that? And a lot, again, going back to the book, it you know, the book is based on methodologies and approaches I've used in organizations for years, large organizations, I've just broken it down to a way that anybody, an individual can now pick that book up, read through it, and go, Ah, yeah, I can do this. So it's just yeah, it's been a slow process, a slow journey, but a great journey, meeting lots of good people on the way through.

Steve Brown: 

Hey, I wanted to pause right here and tell you about a book that you need to get today. It's the funniest book on marketing. It's called The Golden Toilet, stop flushing your marketing budget into your website, and build a system that grows your business. And guess who wrote it? That's right. I wrote it. And I wrote it just for you because I want to help you get past the last hurdles of setting up your business and getting it squared away. I wrote it so that you can avoid time, wasting time, wasting money, wasting frustration, get the book on Audible, you can get it on Kindle, you can get it on Amazon, but get the book, take advantage of the insights in there and let me know what you think. And now back to this excellent episode. You know, we're having this conversation and I would love to kind of like, think of all the vocabulary words that dehumanize the other side. Okay, so I, you know, so you said users you said consumers, clients prospects, but another one is like leads, I got a lead, right? And so we ought to design a vocabulary with the old dehumanized ways and then human side of it, and I got rebuked a little bit and it was like, really good review. You said, why in your book Steve, you do a great job of arguing about humans, but then you go "a lead". And he goes, it's a relationship, not a lead, and I'm going, Oh! He's got me! But that was like, excellent.

John Philpin: 

No, you're absolutely right. I mean a lead is what you basically put on a dog to make sure it doesn't run into the road. But it's interesting, you bring that up so within People First. It's a very, very broad tent but very quickly, I have eight pillars that I hold in head about the thinking of this, the work side and the commerce side of creating the business equation, then I have three pillars that are called identity data and technology. And on the other side, I have language learning and value. And all my thought process run around those, those eight pillars, as I call them, and I'm bringing that up now, because language is one of those pillars, exactly that what you just said, the dehumanizing. It's like, Listen to what a large bank or any large organization will say about the relationship they have with you, how they want to partner with you, that you are their most important person, and so on and so forth. Cut now to the inside of the building, where that's coming from the marketing war room, where they talk about taking the Hill about maximizing share of wallet, I mean, what language do you believe? I personally believe the language behind closed doors. So to me, we live in this world of transparency, but it's only transparent if it suits you. And another example, I've got a personal war on the word content. Right? You wrote a book, I wrote a book, you write articles, you run podcasts, you do great things, and I'm trying to do great things. It is not content, content is what you put in a silo, it's homogenized stuff. If you can't fill that silo with that content, you throw it away and put some other content in. What it does is it reduces the price that the corporation has to pay for the homogenous content, because it's all the same. If you can't write the article for me, Hey, I'll get the article done by somebody else and they'll do it for free, because they want to make their name big. And you think, okay, so whose benefit is it to write content for free? I write books, articles, blog posts, I do podcasts, I never do content. And if you want content, then I understand why the corporation's call it content, because they want it for cheapest they can get it they're about maximizing profit. But why do we as creators, as artists, as writers, as presenters talk about our intellectual property, that we make a living off as content, it's a strange thing, but we get sucked into this corporate vocabulary. And that's another, you know, again, that in itself is just one pillar inside the People First tent.

Steve Brown: 

That's excellent, vocabulary can be very damaging if you're not recognizing it. So let's talk about some of the other pillars, what was like the main pillar that really motivated you to write the book? First, set the story up on, what finally convicted you, oh, I just got to write a book.

John Philpin: 

Well I've wanted to write a book since I was about eight as far as I can work out, I remember the conversation with my mother very well, I just never sure what the book was going to be. The book that I had in my head is still not this book. But this particular book came from this, you know, we always talk about change, and change is always happening. But what happened in 2020 was such a vast global, hit you in the face, what you're going to do kind of change, that I just said, Okay, this is a message, this is what I've got to get out. Because change management is what I've done, right, I'd say sales and marketing, but essentially, I translate what pesetas saying to what the other side is saying, and explain how things are going to change to make that work to the better. It might be talking between the sales and marketing team explaining to sales what marketing does and vice versa. But it's all, essentially it's change. So that's what prompted me to write the book around this, but it's not really the whole People First cannon. The People First whole idea, i've always been interested in the future of work, but but the original thing that started taking me into this was actually identity. And this idea, again, coming out to the software world ID is what everybody talks about. How do you how do you prove who you are? What credentials do you use to log in all this kind of stuff? The word back to language identity has two parts, ID and entity, the entity of who you are, your ego, your self, your inner voice, everything that makes you you is your entity. id is not your identity. And this has been something I've banged on for a long time now, but that's what got me into this thinking, how do we break this stranglehold of the tech industry? Talking about the idea of users, right? It's like, no, what's their identity? How do we bring this, and listen very interesting and clever work going and that's a deep technical level where people are trying to to reconcile what how this problem works and how you do it, how do you bring identity in a human way into technology? And another part of this that makes it very interesting is that you know, on the fringe side of what I do, I look a lot at the underprivileged, unrecognized people of the world. You know people as a sex traffic's people, people that have, you know, some refugees trying to get out of place. They have no papers, they have no ID, but they do have an entity they are people. So, there's a work again, going on how do you? How do you bank people can't prove who they are? And if you can't bank people, then where do they put their money? Oh, it's in cash. Oh, they get robbed, it's something about that, that sort of, you know, hits the spot and again, lots of very bright and intelligent people doing work around us that sort of says, No, we now have to work if you go for a cashless society everybody has to be banked. By the way, why is the bank allowed to hold your identity? Why am I not allowed to hold my identity? My identity is mine, I should let you know who I am through independent validation that I am who I am and I can afford to do this. No single institution should be allowed to, so that's what drove this originally, that's where the identity came from. One of my recent stuff comes around work and the future of work, because I see central rubbish being spoken about it, I actually talk about the future of income. And it's a much more interesting conversation to my mind, who really wants to work? Right? Who wants to get up and empty garbage cans? Or get up at three o'clock in the morning to clean offices? Or to bake bread so that somebody can eat it? Or to, you know, drive a taxi or whatever? There are definitely some people that enjoy that but most people work to get money so they can afford to live. Now, if I can give you a different way of making money, that wasn't called work, and you just concentrated on the future of income. Is that a little bit more interesting? Now, when I talk about income, I'm not talking about UBI, universal basic income, government handouts, I'm talking about when you look at a very rich person, they're not paid by the hour, they're paid by utilizing their assets, let be those is worth the billions he is has some very expensive assets that he can control of. But we've all got assets, why can't we monetize that? I own an expensive lawn mower? Why can't I monetize that in a way that can be loaned out to people and pay to offset that cost? Why can't I buy a self driving car and send that out and being a taxi? I don't have to work it, it'll just round it. That whole idea is what I think is a much more interesting conversation. Because really, at the end of the day, most jobs are going to be automated out. And the answer is not to be a caregiver, plenty of caregivers, if we actually rewarded caregivers in the way that they should be, if we actually rewarded teachers in the way that they should be, then they'd be a lot more interest in going there. But we don't. So that's not a future work, if you've just lost your $200,000 job running in some bank as a middle manager somewhere, because they're flattening the organization, good idea for the corporation, that middle manager can't earn that money elsewhere as a caregiver, or a teacher, or whatever else it might be. So how do we fix that? That's the exploration that I go down with in that particular color, and so on and so forth. But it depends, if I read things I go, well that's not right and get on the old keyboard.

Steve Brown: 

What I find very interesting is that there's this dilemma there from the IT world where we're implementing software because of obvious upsides to utilizing software and the efficiencies of being able to filter data and put data in front of you to help you make better decisions. But the dilemma or the challenges, how do we keep it still where it feels human on the user experience, the human experience side or what I call HEO, human experience optimization. I think that's where the future the pendulum like you and I started this conversation is swinging back to how do we take this unhuman part of the world and package it to where it feels very human, fells very respectful.

John Philpin: 

Yeah, I think it depends which particular company we're talking about. I think there is good work. I think one of the key things is not for us, as individuals as people to feel that we have got some kind of dependency on a corporation to prove who we are. So this identity thing I think, is pretty fundamental, why, I was looking at a website and they asked me to review their website, they're selling some kind of video things for it. And I looked at the shopping cart, I had to pass across to them 20 pieces of information about me. Before I could buy, and I was clicking on the PayPal button, I know that I need a single click on PayPal, I can buy it. So why are you wanting these 20 pieces of information about me? Why do I have to jump through the hoops and what you're going to do with that information? So the work that I look at was, again, there's plenty of them, but I'll name engineers, the UK company that seems to be the leader in this space, this idea of people talking about digital wallets, but holding the information to yourself, when I'm applying for a mortgage, then the mortgage company says, Okay, I need this, this and this about you, that's great. My digital wallet opens up, it passes the information through and at the same time that information passes through a contract is instantiated. This contract is says that you can use this information to give me my mortgage, the information is not going to be stored to you not moved off to a third party is going to return back to my wallet. Right? So it's deep technology to actually make that kind of stuff work. But the curious thing is that corporations have spent billions in these data warehouses, by the way, warehouses, lakes, mountains, all these natural things where they keep data because they want to make you feel nice and greener. It's a natural thing, a data lake and the data mountain. It's not. It's not natural, it's not necessary. So stop calling it that. But because they've invested these billions, they want to, they don't understand that they'll get much richer information. If I give you my information that I need right now to you, you won't have to triangulate information and check up it'll be there and validated by a third party. So that is to me the start of humanizing, putting me back in control. Micropayments is another one, I used to be able to go to a news, newsstand and buy a newspaper. It might have cost me 10 cents, 20 cents these days, it costs a couple of bucks. Why do I have to sign up for a year, online to read an article? Why have you got a giant paywall? Why can't I just pay you a buck to read that article? Why don't they implement those kind of models? Because they want you locked into their world. And 'till the corporation's understand that there's rebellion against that lock in, then we're going to have this eternal problem. So answering your question, just treating us as intelligent humans, and we are intelligent humans, will actually allow, I'll buy stuff from people or send me about something a buck a time. If I don't, I'll find another way around it, there's plenty ways around firewalls and paywalls to get to what you want. So their choice.

Steve Brown: 

We're having a fascinating conversation with John Philpin, and he's the author of For business leaders slapped in the face by a world they felt they knew. People First is his company. So John, what's the one question that you wished you can answer that you never get asked?

John Philpin: 

What Wow. Well, that's one question that never been asked. Never answered. The one question that I'd like to be answer and to be able to answer, I always do get asked, is to just reduce this down to a simpler thing. I'm very aware that my elevator pitch is not succinct, partly because it's so broad, right? So if somebody is interested in identity, I can go down that. But this idea of people first is a big piece of pie to bite. The thing that, gosh, you tripped me up, the other way around, though? I can't think of one. I think, why should I join your, I guess, give me one good reason why I should sign up to peoplefirst.network. Why should that be? And the answer is, it's not about me. It's not about what I'm talking about. It's the idea that you become part of a community of people that have similar concerns as yourself, what I'll be trying to do, if you're a small business in Ohio, will be able to link in with other small biz from Hawaii and share experiences, that's what I'm trying to get to. So joining the network is the one thing that people can do to learn more, again, not just from me, but from all other people as well. I think that answers your question about I'm not sure.

Steve Brown: 

No, I like it. You know, I was thinking though we could work on your your one liner for what you're trying to do. Okay. So here's what's coming out, is that people want to be acknowledged as a human and feel safe and understood. People First has a process to help your business, accomplish that, to help connect better with your relationships that support you, that buy from you, and for the employees that help grow the value of your business.

John Philpin: 

There you go, you got it, absolutely. When the podcast comes out, I'll make sure I stand by that and start using it. Yeah, but that's exactly right. It is about bringing humanity back. And recognizing that corporations are simply made up of people. Corporations are a set of laws, it's a business, business laws. And the things that it does are created by people that are rules made by people. And nothing is absolute. I drop an apple on the floor, gravity says boom, I can do nothing about that. The rules of business are absolutely up for grabs, they can be changed. And that's what I'm trying to get across. Change them for the better and that is by understanding that we are all people.

Steve Brown: 

Excellent. John, you've been a awesome guest on the ROI Online Podcast.

John Philpin: 

Well thank you, Steve. It's been absolutely fun and a real pleasure to be here and so great to catch up with you again. Thank you for the invite, once more. It's been real pleasure. Absolutely. And what I'm seriously impressed by is you listened, and that little summary at the end definitely says to me, you get it. And you do. Thank you very much for that interpretation.

Steve Brown: 

My pleasure. We want to get it. And that's what people get when they listen to ROI Online Podcast. They get it too.

John Philpin: 

There you go. It's brilliant.

Steve Brown: 

Thanks, John.

John Philpin: 

Thank you very much, Steve, talk to you soon, be good.

Steve Brown: 

And that's a wrap. Thanks for listening to another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast. For more, be sure to check out the show notes of this episode and feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn where we can chat, and I can help direct you to the resources you're searching for. To learn more about how you can grow your business better be sure to pick up your copy of my book, The Golden Toilet at surprise thegoldentoilet.com I'm Steve Brown, and we'll see you next week on another fun episode of the ROI Online Podcast.